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 Replies: 165 / Views: 27,971 |
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Valued Member
United States
198 Posts |
I wish I had saved the discussion on the Russian 'English Forum' that covered the die making process and production. First of all dies have to be harder than the metal struck, and common sense will tell you they can't be cast as you keep stating. These counterfeits, at least the ones affecting the American market have fooled experts, who have in the past purchased such pieces as genuine. No hint on granularity or casting was evident. I've repeated what I learned of the production process of these dies more than once, and It did not involve cast dies. I feel that your intentionally downplaying the problem here and it's to the detriment of the hobby. Ignore a serious problem and it'll go away, right? I don't think so. That's like putting a blindfold on a burning man and telling him it won't hurt anymore. When a large group of uncirculated Seated Liberty half dollars appeared in Manila at a major coin show, dealer's bought them up in quantity because they were offered well below book value, but obviously they turned out to be fakes. The coins we've seen here are not cast, and not at all obvious. The last time I checked ebay, the fakes were in fact a poorer quality, and many were just Silver plated. If your referring to this junk, then I'll have to agree. I don't know why the high quality "replica" coins have been pulled. Even the high grade Canadian "replica's" have been pulled. Perhaps they make better money selling to regular customer's, I don't know. Irregardless, those high end counterfeits do in fact exist and making light of the situation is a dis-service to the hobby. The Chinese fakes I'm referring to have been nearly perfect in every way except weight, and if they manage to get well made planchets in the future, who knows what will happen? I feel action need to be taken both in the U.S. and in Canada to prevent the spread of these unmarked counterfeits, but unfortunately I don't see that happening. The U.S Secret service considers it a non-issue. They have "more important" things on their plates. That leave it to us to fight it the only way we can, through educating the collector, especially new ones, about this ever growing problem. ~ Jim |
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Valued Member
United States
324 Posts |
Jim said: "First of all dies have to be harder than the metal struck, and common sense will tell you they can't be cast as you keep stating." Well, here is an example of a coin made from cast dies: http://www.vamworld.com/1902-O+VAM-3?f=printThe description clearly states: "Fine scattered raised dots all over obverse, typical of cast die." Jim said: "I feel that your intentionally downplaying the problem here and it's to the detriment of the hobby." (for about the 6th or time or so) Well Jim, I feel you that you haven't properly read and absorbed what I and others have said on this board, and that you have done insufficient research on the matter. You have not produced pictures of the high quality fakes from China of Canadian coins that you claim exist, and are now saying they are no longer on ebay. Only the low quality ones remain - the very ones I have been talking about. Well, these lower quality ones are the only ones I have seen in the past few years. As for higher quality counterfeits, this is what I said earlier: "These are the counterfeits I am worried about - the ones that can fool an expert - and they are there. A URL to a site was posted earlier of some high quality reproductions of Canadian $1 coins - 1945, 1946, 1947 and 1948 (if I remember right). These were made some time ago, and look very good. Supposedly, there are also good quality reproductions of gold Canadian coins from 1912, 1913 and 1914 and 1967. Those too are ones that concern me - along with counterfeit 1oz Maple Leafs. So you need to check every gold coin you purchase. For USA and UK coins, there are many convincing counterfiets out there that also are of a serious concern." How exactly does this comment downplay the problem? |
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Valued Member
United States
198 Posts |
"There are none so blind as those who will no see" that's a old saying and it fits you quite well. I have not jammed up my computer with photos of fake coins I don't own, and unlike yourself I haven't been purchasing them in the past. It strikes me that your attempting to make light of the current problem for some reason that hasn't come to light yet. When this thread started, there were dozens of high grade Canadian counterfeits being offered on ebay, and we all know that's a fact. It seems your the only one in denial about that. I assure you, I didn't purchase them, or encourage ebay to remove them. If I had that power, they'd all be removed. That you claim I haven't "read or absorbed"data clearly shows your ignorance here, you know nothing about me except my few posts here. I won't even bother to lower myself to your level, I just want collector's to know the truth. There are high grade counterfeits from China that have fooled experts far more experienced than yourself, and that these fakes have the potential to improve in time. The fakes are made from dies created by computer imaging and the dies cut by computer guided laser cutting. Any diagnostics that might warn collectors off as it the early counterfeits, are removed upon inspection. The coins are then struck on vintage presses so that they appear to be period pieces. You ask me to show and to prove, but this has been in the news, newspapers and internet for a long time now, and it's time you simply pull your head of of your the sand.  If your not part of the solution, at least have the decency to stop being part of the problem. It seems that you may have a hidden agenda since direct questions are either ignored or deflected instead of answered. The problem exists, period, and collectors new and old need to be made aware of it. ~ Jim |
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Locked
822 Posts |
Quote:
The fakes are made from dies created by computer imaging and the dies cut by computer guided laser cutting. You keep saying it, but show us nothing. If your so positive, other than in your own mind, show us something. Quote:
You ask me to show and to prove, but this has been in the news, newspapers and internet for a long time now, So show us for crying out loud and the debate will be over won't it? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
I have to admit, I'm a little confused about the finer points of this conversation--which quite honestly would baffle any casual observer. What exactly are we discussing here? 1. Counterfeits of Canadian coins exist (the original subject after all).  2. Counterfeiting activity has been documented in China--as well as elsewhere. But if we discuss a source, let's cite some documentation. 3. High-quality, die-struck fakes are being made somewhere--but not China? Here, refer to the link I provided of a hydraulic press operation. This is not pressure-casting. 4. Some rather muddled definitions over how fakes are made. Pressure casting is one process, and striking a fake with dies is another. Hydraulic presses require hardened dies of tool steel, but if you have documentation of some other process--I'd like to see. And, just to touch upon a point raised above: Quote:Well, here is an example of a coin made from cast dies: http://www.vamworld.com/1902-O+VAM-3?f=printThe description clearly states: "Fine scattered raised dots all over obverse, typical of cast die." Well...the same article states: Quote:
...most probably struck outside the US Mint sometime in the early 20th century I'd guess that an early 20th century source for these Morgan dollar fakes is probably not contributing to the current problem.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2254 Posts |
Ok, enough is enough. Bottom line, counterfeiting is a rampant problem, and it doesn't matter what the face or collector value of the coin is for it to be a candidate for this. Educate yourself about the series that you collect, and you stand a chance not to get burned. Jim and mkb, the buck stops here. Some of the posts contained in this could easily be construed as public attacks. Done and done. Feel free to continue to educate folks and answer questions, but comments like this end now.Quote:
I won't even bother to lower myself to your level, Jim, I am not singling you out on this. It seems you have both rubbed each other the wrong way. Fine, people can have their differences of opinions, but it won't end up like this again. Problem with someone's post, use the notes to staff button. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
There is always a moderator when you don't need one. And vice versa. Well... Sounds like the only coins not worth counterfeiting are these 'JUNK' NCLT coins from the mints. A thread worth reading, at last.  |
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Valued Member
United States
198 Posts |
I believe the facts are all out there, as are the links. I'm certain even more information on this large and ongoing counterfeiting operation will come out soon. No intent to confuse was made, indeed just the opposite. This is a problem in Canada today, but not just Canada! U.S. Numismatics has been affected adversely for many years. If I remember correctly, it began with the U.S. Trade dollars. I don't mean to offend anyone, just get the truth out there. While there may be some low grade counterfeits coming out of China today ( the 1964-D Peace dollar is Silver plated base metal)there is also the opposite extreme. Collector's today need to realize this and beware. Downplaying of this fact is obviously not doing good for the hobby in general. We've always had counterfeits, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread. What's completely new here, is the ready availability of these counterfeits. Anyone with a computer and a ebay account can now have them delivered to their door. If that's not scary, I don't know what is. Now, to those who doubted me, I humbly appologize for my offering no more than my word on things. In most places, it's been regarded rather highly though, and perhaps in time here as well. I did some searching, and the information I paraphrased was from COIN WORLD newspaper apparently. I quote from a blog called "Cultural Property Observer" you can check it out at http://culturalpropertyobserver.blo...m-china.html or read it below. I never intended to mislead anybody, in any way. ~ JimQuote:Here is how Coin World describes it: Asked how he manages to produce such convincing counterfeits, Jinghuashei explains that he uses genuine examples for his models. He downloads digital information about the genuine coin into a computerized coins sculpturing system via laser beam input. The laser system scans the coin using a method of triangulation, taking constant readings from thousands of different data points, producing a three-dimensional model of the coin that is extremely accurate. If needed he has the ability to "clean up" the digital model to remove blemishes or distinguishing diagnostics that were on the original coin such as contact marks, die chips, die polishing marks or even flow lines on a struck coin. He notes that everything is done with a view to making the die that is produced as spotless as possible so that nothing will give away the coin struck from it as a counterfeit. The next step in the process is to render the three-dimensional computer file into an actual coin die. A laser die-cutting process carves the image into a steel surface, which is added to a base (die shank) and then the coin is ready to be placed into the coin presses to strike actual pieces. Coin World, Dec. 8, 2008, at 92. The article then goes on to note that the counterfeiter even has old coin presses that do a good job of replicating strikings of earlier coins. The one problem the counterfeiter has is that he is dependent on outside suppliers for metal and thus has not been able to exactly replicate the composition of the coins (and hence their weight). Although he says he stamps the word "replica" them, the Coin World reporter was unable to spot the term on all his coins. The counterfeiter indicates that his work is quite legal in China and he doubts the US Government will ever prosecute him. He regularly sells on ebay. He states he produces about 100,000 fake Chinese coins per month (both ancient and modern) and about 1000 fake US coins per month. Even better, he offers such fake US coins in fake US albums or even fake PSGS slabs! Of course, this is only one such operation in China. It is indeed ironic that China has purportedly asked the US to impose import restrictions on genuine Chinese coins, but has apparently done little, if anything, at all to stop the export of deceptive fakes to the United States. Edited by Jim Archibald
05/01/2009 10:55 am
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Valued Member
United States
324 Posts |
It would be good to see the original article from Coin World (whose focus was on US coins). In another reference to that article, this was said in part: "The articles indicate that Jinghuashei's operation is mainly involved with impressing the designs onto the replicas. The dies are made in another specialist workshop. These are produced by laser scanning a three dimensional image into a digital coin sculpting system. This digital image is "cleaned up" to remove die faults marks etc. The image is then laser cut into a steel die. No mention is made of die polishing but it is believed that laser cutting would require this. The coin blanks are obtained from another outside manufacturer. Those for the Chinese coins are made of "iron" [does this mean steel?] and those for USA coins a copper nickel alloy. Although it is not reported, it must be assumed both of these alloys are often coated. Coin World purchased twelve of Jinghuashei's coins and at their request he left off the "REPLICA" stamp. They judged all twelve were "very good counterfeits" with a 1909-S Lincoln, V.D.B. cent being the most deceptive. The just-struck appearance of the copies was considered their main weakness. The article quotes the weight, relative density and physical dimensions found on these copies. These results showed good indications that the pieces were not genuine. The impression given is that Jinghuashei has not been producing the higher grade Chinese counterfeits that are made of the correct alloy." The URL: http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk...etter11.htmlA good comment from a collector: "If the Chinese counterfeits are getting good enough to fool half of the dealers approached at FUN they are getting good enough to fool most collectors. Should these articles scare you as a collector? No. They should make you more aware and should prompt you to educate yourself so you can identify counterfeit coins." URL: http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t46943/ |
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Valued Member
United States
198 Posts |
Quote:"The most important part of these articles are the communications from the Chinese replica/counterfeit/fake coin manufacturer, Jinghuashei. He uses this name for selling on ebay. The 26-year old Jinghuashei owns the "Big Tree Coin Factory". He claims to be the largest Chinese manufacturer of his type. He is situated in Fujian province and claims to have up to one hundred competitors. He claims he produces about 100,000 fake Chinese coins per month. These are mainly sold into China as tourist souvenirs. He sells about one thousand USA fakes per month via ebay and also several thousand fake world coin types per month." I see this as a major problem, those same high grade pieces are being produced for Canada as well. In time even more information will make it's way out. Quote:
"The dies are made in another specialist workshop. These are produced by laser scanning a three dimensional image into a digital coin sculpting system. This digital image is "cleaned up" to remove die faults marks etc. The image is then laser cut into a steel die." Thank you for further proving my previous statements. Quote:
"The impression given is that Jinghuashei has not been producing the higher grade Chinese counterfeits that are made of the correct alloy." This quote in itself implies that these high grade/correct metal counterfeits we've been discussing here in fact, do exist. These discussion's keep the topic in the public eye and if it makes the collector more cautious then it's all good. ~ Jim |
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Valued Member
Australia
335 Posts |
Thanks for the above information. I had not seen that before though I had a good idea of what has been going on. Of concern for me arises from the following paragraph: Quote: Here is how Coin World describes it: Asked how he manages to produce such convincing counterfeits, Jinghuashei explains that he uses genuine examples for his models. He downloads digital information about the genuine coin into a computerized coins sculpturing system via laser beam input. The laser system scans the coin using a method of triangulation, taking constant readings from thousands of different data points, producing a three-dimensional model of the coin that is extremely accurate. So my concern would be that these guys and others like him could go into online photo storage databases where many collectors store and display images of their coins, and download the images then use them as the basis for producing these dies. Are we making their job at counterfeiting coins that much easier? Wayne |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian_coins: There is always a moderator when you don't need one. And vice versa. Care to explain this little comment? If there wasn't some type of "personal attack" comments in this thread there would have been no need for any Moderator to step in and pull the plug before it just got worse. If I am not mistaken we got a "notes to staff" from a few members concerned that this was getting a little out of hand so it seems some members seemed to feel this was a time that a Moderator was needed even if you disagree because the thread was heading off track from that the OP expected when they started the thread. So as I said before please explain what this comment was supposed to mean, especially if you have a problem with the way the Moderators run the forum when they feel as if there is something that needs to be addressed especially when its in clear violation of the rules of the forum |
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Valued Member
United States
198 Posts |
Brissyboy, I believe that they in fact need the actual coin to produce a three dimensional digital image in order for the second devise, the laser engraver to work. Any photograph, no matter how sharp, would not give the computer exact measurements regarding the depth of the devises. ~ Jim
Edited by Jim Archibald
05/02/2009 11:00 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1554 Posts |
 We've spoken of counterfeit coins regarding business strikes, however, has anyone seen or heard of any proof or hologram coins being counterfeited? I personally have not yet, but perhaps they may be next! Glenn  |
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Valued Member
Australia
138 Posts |
I posted this over in the Australian coins section but thought it would be of interest to people following this thread. I just acquired a fake bullion grade silver coin, it's a common year Aussie florin. I'm waiting to get more information from the seller about the history of the coin. The pictures I posted are worth checking out, luckily the better half is good at capturing coin photos for me!  https://goccf.com/t/47554 |
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Posted 04/30/2009 12:28 am
