The Top TPG's, They Earned That Title At One Time, But Is

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Author	Replies: 11 / Views: 1,890
Justice41ca New Member United States 44 Posts	Posted 03/25/2022 02:49 am Hi all, Please don't beat me up to bad, In my opinion, that position is just given to them now. Some earn it some don't. Meaning I have read everything I can and the one thing I keep seeing is the change in the grading standards. Forgive me for not knowing the correct terms, I could go get my book, but that is not what this is about. The standard was created and has been adhered to ever since. By Collectors not the TPG come lately. The one that is considered the top dog, IMO is only holding 1st because of the past. They are not earning it now. Why is that? Why do they continue to be on top when they are no longer giving reliable service? If a coin is in their holder it sells for more, I know. But at what cost to the community. I know a lot of the long-time collectors and dealers have stopped turning in coins like they used to. I have seen Some great people on this site that have been doing this for a very long time. Probably longer than the one that sits there and grades the coin, Doubt themself. This isn't the only site that has continued opinions about this one TPG. So why do they continue to hold on to that title? Why are people still using them. I had just looked at the 1996 Roosevelt dime FB that they have listed on their site as a MS 67 FB. It does not even meet the standards of their own description. FB is supposed to be clearly separated. If that is clearly separated, then I don't know what to say. I read a post where the person sent in the coin and it came back MS64 I know it is hard to grade by pictures but this was in no way a 64. I see this all the time on posts. NGC grades something they send it in to have it cross graded and it comes back less. They are not Gods they are people that have a reasonability, but their first and foremost thought is the company making money. PCGS asked for a survey, and I gave it to them. I told them I was wondering how some grades got the grade they did, was it because it was a long time member that spent a lot of money, They wanted to keep them happy? Or was it a friend of someone's etc. Or were the graders able to be bought. Yeah I know I was to harsh. I was mad. Like I said there are people I admire for their knowledge that have doubted all because PGCS has the final word. Or, do they? Are you not the ones that put them in that position in the first place? Because you valued their ability. Are they really valued because they earn it now. Or are we just letting them stay at the top because of the past? Just asking because I may be new but I will not send anything to PCGS because I don't see the value in it. If I sell something and they want to send it to PCGS that is fine but in truth. My respect has to be earned and right now the other 3 have it going in the right direction. I am just curious as to why this is taking place? You are a strong industry with very strong people. To me can't be on Top is you don't deserve it. Not just because you are in California. That right there tells me a lot. So go ahead and explain to me please. I hope those that I admire will come and comment. Thanks for letting me let off steam. Report this Post to the Staff

ijn1944 Bedrock of the Community United States 19147 Posts	Posted 03/25/2022 07:21 am Always an interesting topic, yes. Unsure of your remark concerning California. Report this Post to the Staff
kanga Pillar of the Community United States 5825 Posts	Posted 03/25/2022 09:22 am Quote: Meaning I have read everything I can and the one thing I keep seeing is the change in the grading standards. If I understand history correctly, over time there has been grade inflation. Now the "powers that be" are realizing that and are moving back (slowly) to former standards. To me that means the The Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins will be more accurate. And grading of US coins will be more like the Canadian grading. Report this Post to the Staff
Coinfrog Bedrock of the Community United States 94367 Posts	Posted 03/25/2022 10:03 am Thanks for the opinion. to the CCF! Report this Post to the Staff
GrapeCollects Pillar of the Community United States 8938 Posts	Posted 03/25/2022 11:29 am Quote: I know a lot of the long-time collectors and dealers have stopped turning in coins like they used to. Uhh, just not true. They are down from 2021 sure, but 2021 was a massive year with record breaking submission numbers. Quote: I had just looked at the 1996 Roosevelt dime FB that they have listed on their site as a MS 67 FB. Just looked myself, not really sure which you're referencing. Personally, I think FB on Rosie dimes is really arbitrary as what constitutes fully split is really just opinion 99% of the time. Quote: I know it is hard to grade by pictures but this was in no way a 64. I saw that thread too, but as Thad said in it, it's not a 67 in a 64, it's MAYBE a 65 in a 64. The lighting wasn't perfect, but from what I could tell, it is probably at best a 65. Quote: Meaning I have read everything I can and the one thing I keep seeing is the change in the grading standards. As Kanga said upthread the head graders have been well aware of this and are working to address this. Having spoken to current and past graders they are all aware about this "tightening up" as a result, some coins will come back 1 grade under sometimes. Personally, I'd rather have 1 coin under than 10 coins over. It's a lot easier to sell a coin that's undergraded than a coin that's overgraded. Quote: NGC grades something they send it in to have it cross graded and it comes back less. Crossovers can never grade lower than the original grade. Meaning if you sub a PCGS 64 to NGC unless you explicitly tell them in writing they will not cross it to NGC UNLESS it would grade a 64 or better. If they feel it'd be a 63 they leave it in the original holder. Cracking coins is a different game though. Quote: If that is clearly separated, then I don't know what to say. Kinda moving back to this, yeah I'm somewhat with you. PCGS and NGC are both especially bad with strike designations. Anyone hunting for really choice FSB merc dimes or FS Jefferson nickels can attest to this. I think it probably has to do with some confusion on what constitutes what. Quote: Or, do they? Are you not the ones that put them in that position in the first place? Because you valued their ability. Are they really valued because they earn it now. Or are we just letting them stay at the top because of the past? Quite frankly I do what nearly everyone here does. I buy the holder BECAUSE it guarantees authenticity, not because I particularly care what their opinion is on the grade. I'm more than confidant on my own personal ability to grade. The first thing people here will say is buy the coin not the holder, and stealing a line from WestCoin, buy the book before the coin so you know what you're buying. Report this Post to the Staff
AES Valued Member United States 452 Posts	Posted 03/25/2022 10:54 pm There are really only four services that I'd consider using and I've sent coins to all of them over the last ten years, and in my opinion they all have their respective place in the hobby. I like ICG if I'm only looking for a professional opinion on authenticity, especially for old details gold coins. You can bank on those guys calling out a counterfeit. PCGS is a lot tougher (and accurate) on normal Peace dollar mint state grades so I choose them for my High MS Peace dollar set. NGC does a lot better with the low MS/circulated GSA soft pack Peace dollars in my opinion so I use them and their respective registry for those. There are no better qualified experts in the field (other than Dr. Close) than John Roberts at ANACS for Peace dollar VAM attributions, so I choose ANACS for any questionable Peace dollar VAM attributions. Edit: I would take anyone's professional strike designation over PCGS. Put a light an loupe on it and verify before buying it. 40/60 Edited by AES 03/25/2022 11:11 pm Report this Post to the Staff
GrapeCollects Pillar of the Community United States 8938 Posts	Posted 03/26/2022 11:38 am Quote: I would take anyone's professional strike designation over PCGS. Put a light an loupe on it and verify before buying it. 40/60 40/60? You've got more confidence in them than I do. Report this Post to the Staff
Justice41ca New Member United States 44 Posts	Posted 03/26/2022 2:37 pm Thank you all, Valued responses and insights. ijn1944 Quote: Always an interesting topic, yes. Unsure of your remark concerning California. I am a native Californian, I shouldn't have said it (even though I meant it) It is hard to explain unless you live here. I Just need to move. GrapeCollects Quote: Uhh, just not true. They are down from 2021 sure, but 2021 was a massive year with record breaking submission numbers. Is that because of all the new people coming to the Hobby? I was just going by what I have read or heard from said collectors. TI didn't mean they stopped completely, just not like they used to. To be fair I think some of it has to do with the cost also. On the 1996 Roosevelt dime FB, When the powers that be acknowledged the FB so to speak, ANA I think. I read what was said and the description of what had to be in order to be FB. These are professional graders to me it couldn't be clearer. Quote: Personally, I'd rather have 1 coin under than 10 coins over. It's a lot easier to sell a coin that's undergraded than a coin that's overgrade I 100 % agree with you on this. That is what had me frustrated. MS63- A coin with some distracting contact marks or blemishes in prime focal areas. Luster may be impaired. MS 65- An above average coin. May be brilliant or lightly toned and that has very few contact marks on the surface or rim kanga Quote: if I understand history correctly, over time there has been grade inflation. Now the "powers that be" are realizing that and are moving back (slowly) to former standards. To me that means the The Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins I hope so. It is easier to learn if somethings are consistent. Maybe it will never get that black and white for me. I will just have to rely on someone else. I knew I saw that term grade inflation somewhere It is also in the Official Red Book. ASE Quote: I would take anyone's professional strike designation over PCGS. Thank you, for your whole post it is a very good point. You have it figured out. I now, thanks to you all, can too. Coinfrog Thank you for the response. I read enough of your replies to know your few words sometimes say a lot. I again thank you all, At least I now don't feel quite as crazy. I just need something to be consistent to understand. Now I think I have found it. The only consistent in this hobby is nothing is consistent. Please tell me I am right. LOL I guess I could have made the topic a lot shorter by asking why no one challenges the grade? It is my understanding that anyone can. At least that is how I read it in the Red Book. Am I taking the book to literal? I meant to ask the question a long time ago. Have a great rest of the weekend back to work I go. Report this Post to the Staff
GrapeCollects Pillar of the Community United States 8938 Posts	Posted 03/26/2022 5:12 pm Quote: MS63- A coin with some distracting contact marks or blemishes in prime focal areas. Luster may be impaired. MS 65- An above average coin. May be brilliant or lightly toned and that has very few contact marks on the surface or rim Wait, are you using the RedBook as a grading guide? Report this Post to the Staff
Justice41ca New Member United States 44 Posts	Posted 03/28/2022 1:44 pm GrapeCollects asked Quote: Wait, are you using the RedBook as a grading guide? No! but I did probably take the description from it. I have the Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards. It seems that I fail on this book also. Meaning.... ANAGS, MS65 Shows an attractive high quality of luster and strike FOR the date and time...... If copper the coin....... or darkened color as designated. You get to MS67 and it only has to have original luster and NORMAL strike for date and mint. If copper ...... has original color Book also makes it clear that eye appeal; is difficult to define, but as it states most of us know a pleasing or beautiful coin when we see it. Is a candidate for a higher grade. Contact Marks; A coin with few or no contact marks is a candidate for a high grade. Hairlines; are hairlines Luster; is supposed to be one of the most important aspects of grading in the MS state. All other things equal a coin with rich, deep mint luster is a better candidate for a higher grade than one with a dull or lifeless luster. To me this is where RD RB and BN for copper have their difference. What am I missing? To my understanding with this book: A coin with contact marks etc. has to have a above adv strike etc. to be MS65 (because of the contact marks or hairlines) To be MS67 has Original Luster and Normal strike for date and mint (Now it no longer states time. It states mint) may have 3 or 4 very small contact marks and one more noticeable but not detracting. If copper the coin has luster and original color. So in between these to lie MS66 which is why I think the penny is MS66 by these standards IMO. Clearly I am missing something. Thank you for taking the time I am really trying to learn. I am a very black and white person and take things literal. In the book it states that some of these standards are not being followed which brought me to the original question. How can you be at the top if you don't earn it. Thanks in advance for helping me understand. If you would be so kind as giving example or reason behind the answer. That why I can see where I am going wrong. You all are the best thanks Report this Post to the Staff
GrapeCollects Pillar of the Community United States 8938 Posts	Posted 03/28/2022 6:36 pm Quote: I have the Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards. Okay so this is gonna be a long road. But I'll try to help as best I can. Books are great. Experience is better. Actually looking at coins is always easier than reading about them. I'm gonna tell you a secret, go to the grading forums and just take a shot on every coin posted. Don't look at what other people are saying until AFTER you post your grade. Then ask questions if you get a different answer. That'll be the fastest way to learn. Grading is extremely nuanced and difficult. You need to learn what marks are weighed more than others, what marks are forgivable and what aren't. Placement and severity go hand in hand. The book is great, but just use it as the most vague outline. What I'm trying to say is, the book is great, and is used as a standard, that said, the book is very very useless in that it doesn't explain what defines a 62 from a 63 or a 61. 2 MS-67 1881-S Morgans can look VERY different and both CAN still be MS-67. Just do what I said and start commenting on every grading thread. Doesn't matter if you know NOTHING about that particular series because you will learn from osmosis. The worst that can happen is you're wrong, and if that's the case that's a good thing because that means you can learn from other people and improve. Not to toot my own horn but I think I can grade well above average, that said I've handled hundreds of thousands of coins so that's to be expected. But, I didn't learn from a book, I learned by asking in threads and by being wrong. I was wrong a LOT. Eventually I stopped getting some things wrong and started getting some right. My best advice as odd as it may sound is ignore MS coins for now, still comment on them if you see them posted, but as far as learning goes, focus on learning circulated coins. The reason I say this is pretty simple, it's a lot easier to get down and once you get the handle on what separates a VF-20 from a F-15 or VF-25 it becomes a lot easier to tell a MS-61 from a 63 or 62. If you start with MS coins, it'll be a lot rougher and more difficult to learn. But, again as I said, please do take a shot on them. Report this Post to the Staff
Justice41ca New Member United States 44 Posts	Posted 03/31/2022 04:19 am GrapeCollects Quote: Okay so this is gonna be a long road. But I'll try to help as best I can. Books are great. Experience is better. Actually looking at coins is always easier than reading about them. That is the best advice anyone could have given me. I will do my part. Truth is what I want to know, what coins to keep and what one I can let go. As much as I would like to I can't keep them all. Your right about the long road ..... I am still smiling on that one. It has been over a year and I don't know if I am any closer to understanding. O.k. going to go find post to grade. Thank you Report this Post to the Staff
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