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 Replies: 265 / Views: 17,287 |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Great. Now I have to revisit the pitting issue from the very start, because you've interjected enough doubt.
I've never believed pitting formed in a die which was already installed. How could it? The metal never sat still long enough for rust that serious to form. Not even raw polished iron will pit to that degree overnight, or over a weekend. Furthermore, if it were standing water which caused pitting, why then does one see pitted fields as often as pitted devices? You'd think the devices would, being lower, be the place where pitting would happen.
If caused by rust, pitting would have to happen during storage, as a function of humidity. Philly, New Orleans and San Fran are all places where this is plausible. The fact that there are few/no Prooflike pitted coins is a nonstarter for me - it's intuitively obvious that if enough rust were present to eat away at some parts of the die, and humidity were the root cause, the whole die would be "rusting" and even though visible damage hadn't occurred over the whole die's face the micro-smooth surface responsible for Prooflike characteristics would have already been eaten away.
Zeewool, I've a few good Mint State 1921 Pitted Reverses. Gotta be up early for a meeting, or I'd post them now.
Wonder what sort of foreign object might do that sort of damage to a die if slammed into it two or three times at 150 tons of pressure? Is the steel in a die capable of pitting the steel of another die, if fragmented that finely?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Excellent points and thoughts Dave, rather mirroring my own. I tend to think of a coin press as I do any other large industrial machine in a seedy old company. Have you ever seen a clean one? I envision these presses as having a perpetual coat of metal shavings, filings, grit, dust, you name it, encasing them. It would not be beyond my vision to think that the press itself produced the catalyst for these 'pits'. Perhaps even microscopic bits of previous dies may have fallen in harm's way. Quote:
Is the steel in a die capable of pitting the steel of another die, if fragmented that finely? Oh, I would certainly think so, wouldn't you? The pieces of a die that crack and break off of one die didn't do so because of softness, it was a result of being brittle. A brittle piece of one die could easily be harder than a die of moderate annealing I would think. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1285 Posts |
Is it possible that something was on the "blank / planchette" before the strike (pitting)? Lack of quality control so to say and total spec on my part.
Interesting discussion.
Peace
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
If the 'pitting' is on the planchet rather than the die, each coin would be unique in pit placement. I do not know if that is the case or not, but I would rather doubt it. Even the pitting gods should be astute enough to notice that.
I do understand what you are saying though. Carbon bubbles within the planchet surfacing and popping during strike. Good thought.
I rather doubt that anyone will ever know exactly what the cause was, but for sure it wasn't what the experts think it was. Like so many things that surround vamming, knowledge is only a pretender to the throne, ignorance is actually king, supported by those who refrain from challenging overbearing egos. We live in the dark ages, but I think that someday soon, a personality will emerge out of nowhere to change things.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Someone please explain how pitting can be progressive.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
A bad planchet from what I have seen looks like lamination or a low spot in the coin that is not PMD never pitting. |
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
First SeatedNut is a nice guy who is not in a wheelchair... he just likes Seated coins (dollars I believe) Here are my thoughts on the pitting... I DO believe it was caused by moisture and here's why... First note that not all but I would say a majority of pitted coins are found in O mints. (not that I am saying only O mints, just that there are more pitted O mint coins than any other mint) that said, humidity in New Orleans is obviously high. But that isn't the only place water came from. Remember these coin presses were steam driven for the majority of their lives. (for the existing press, they have been converted to an electric drive) So the likely hood of water and steam and such in the press drive mechanism is plausible. Now that doesn't make sense... why would there be more O problems with O pitted coins than others. Well, I dont know the answer to that, but here is my suspicion... It has to do with the way the die was made... The metal used, the hardening annealing processes and such. Some metals or combinations of metals including steel can rust over night. An easy example is a gun... If you want to ruin a gun over night (or over the weekend) put a gun in its case wet and let it sit. (mind you this needs to be a blued steel gun) It will rust overnight. I have made this mistake. I have seen guns left over the weekend in the same conditions and it was HORRIBLE BAD. JUST HORRIBLE RUST DEEP RUST EVERYWHERE. (not yelling) So this is how I explain how SOME dies got pitted and some did not. It makes sense that the technology of the time there was no test to confirm the density of the die or the metal content and makeup. They put the metals together and then did a hardening test. (we have all seen the dots and denticle impressions... however you believe they got there) This test was to confirm that the die was of sufficient strength to strike coins. Well, it was, but IMO the metal makeup allows for rust to happen (like in the gun incident) In locations where the humidity was high, the moisture is less likely to evaporate and cause more rust (full circle here) hence more rust from O minted coins. The die was the failure, but nothing more than the metal makeup and circumstance. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Quote:First SeatedNut is a nice guy who is not in a wheelchair... he just likes Seated coins (dollars I believe) Now how did I get drawn into all of this? I picked that screen name when I joined in '07 because that was my primary focus ... then I started down the dark VAM path. I haven't added to my Seated collection in over two years.  Now that's the real "Pits". |
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
LOL... That's alright... we still love you. LOL If they knew what your other name was elsewhere, they might understand better.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Actually, they 'do' know what his name is elsewhere, both user and real name. Dave, this is what drew you into this: Quote:
Terry, you seem to know the SeatedNut fairly well don't you? Well, I haven't noticed him around these here parts in a spell, and there was something that I have been meaning to ask him, but I keep forgetting to ask when he does show, so I'll ask you now.....His user name has intrigued me.....he is not confined to a wheelchair is he? I met a vamming kinda guy about a year ago who was, (and was also sort of a nut), and I can't remember if his name was Dave or Mike.
Edited to add:
If you do read this stuff Nut, I am only trying to flush you out. It is more fun with you in the mix here. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
The moisture thing (like the denticle impressions that you bring up) is not even a remote possibility...not the least bit plausible, but, by the same token:
Nobody here is asking you to believe anything other than what you want to continue believing Remmy.
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
Explain why it is not plausible? Are you saying that steel dies cannot rust over a weekend? I'd be happy to show you how fast steel can rust... that is something I can prove. (i would however be using an OLD gun barrel as the "die"... not the best test but it would show someone how unprotected steel rusts in moist conditions.
I know this is a heated debate about how some of these anomalies occur, but when challenging the accepted solution, you really need facts to back up claims outside the accepted reasons. Much research has been done on the front of pitting, denticle clashes, and Dots. We need proof of some sort to prove it another way. By just saying that it is not even a remote possibility only states your opinion of my suspicions, which are not set in stone. I am willing to listen and change my mind, however I need proof that what your opinion of how it happens is right. I can prove how metal (steel) can quickly rust. Lou I know you know a lot about metals, so lets hear it. You always have good insights whether or not I agree with them, but proving them will quickly change my mind. :)
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
We need proof of some sort to prove it another way. That's the only part of your statement I'd disagree with, and only because the original theories don't offer proof either. Apparently that ain't the standard.  I've seen gun barrels rust heavily overnight; I just assumed die steel was tougher stuff. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
I know this is a heated debate about how some of these anomalies occur, but when challenging the accepted solution, you really need facts to back up claims outside the accepted reasons. Much research has been done on the front of pitting, denticle clashes, and Dots. We need proof of some sort to prove it another way. Actually, it is not a heated debate. I have learned enough about debates with those who know nothing (and I don't mean you Remmy) to know that they are like talking to a wall. A total waste of time. Much research has been done on pitting and denticle impressions ? RESEARCH? I am going to quit, right now, right here, I thought that I had left behind the reminders of ......ugh. I'm gone....Bye everyone. |
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Posted 08/17/2010 01:35 am
