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 Replies: 136 / Views: 10,886 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5640 Posts |
Bob, If your coin exhibits no wear, and you state you are 100% sure about the no wear factor, I would respectfully ask, why was the coin ONLY graded an MS63?? I am trying to make a point here and no one has picked up on it, I will NOT ask more questions about this Miracle Morgan which 'shows no wear', not my words, but think about where the TPG'S and we as a group have come to expect, or come to accept am MS63 coin, as a coin with no wear, and we all know every MS63 coin, especially Morgans, while the label states MS-63 the coin clearly exhibits wear. I feel on this site there are some very bright, experienced, knowledgeable Numismatists, I consider my self one in practice, after 47+ years of learning and weighing out the possibilities, of wear, strike related sights, worn dies, strike throughs, laminations,annealing problems and the resultant factors brought about by this one, single major flaw,humid working conditions,antiquated machines and procedures, poor working habits and the rest of the PDS system, which the mints employees were to contend with on a daily basis. I clearly see the opinions here are differing to the extent that there must be something, some outstanding factor we are missing? Is this possible, are there things we as a collecting group have put up with and the TPG's are taking us all for a bath?How can a coin, showing wear, be graded an MS coin?Yet, it goes on all day, every day to the tune of millions of dollars a year. I know this site has allowed me to express my opinions and like others, have some that might NOT be the same as some others, but, I do believe we owe to the next care takers of our collecting likes, the simple, honest truth.......Grading is more than an art and more than simply defined as subjective, it is a clear understanding of the entire coining process, having that complete knowledge and putting it to use in the opinionated, intelligent, knowledgeable world of Numismatic grading....... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I still have much to think about before I post more in-depth thoughts on this subject...As far as the 1901-0 coin is concerned...The OBV is gorgeous,, but the reverse is beaten up. not to mention both sides exhibit a weak strike..GREAT LUSTER....MS63 is why the Grade was given by the TPG's... though one must also think about the ideas TECHNICAL grade and market grade..and how this all fits in to the big picture... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
Perhaps a good simplification would be to only include coins with full luster and ultra light marks on the "mint state" scale and extend the AU ("almost mint state") scale from its current 50 - 58 out to 50 - 63. That would remove all those bag marked and scuffed coins from "mint state" consideration (seems fair), keep the current numbering system intact, and allow many AU-58 pieces to be promoted to an accurate place on the 0-70 numeric scale. The result would be most of the 58's get promoted to 62 or 63, some with poor luster stay at 58, and the current 63's generally stay in the same spot recognizing that something like a heavy pock marked cheek is just as unappealing as some light wear. EDIT: Perhaps TPG's effectively do this already by allowing AU-58's, by current definition, into the 60-63 grades. Edited by fenton
01/14/2011 01:33 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Grade is limited to MS-63 by a heavy bagmark in front of nose, two on neck, scruffiness on jaw line, heavy bagmarks underneath wings, and the few scattered carbon spots on the reverse.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
Perhaps a good simplification would be to only include coins with full luster and ultra light marks on the "mint state" scale and extend the AU ("almost mint state") scale from its current 50 - 58 out to 50 - 63. That would remove all those bag marked and scuffed coins from "mint state" consideration (seems fair), keep the current numbering system intact, and allow many AU-58 pieces to be promoted to an accurate place on the 0-70 numeric scale. The trouble is, you is either pregnant or you ain't.  A coin has either been in circulation, or it has not. We have ample evidence (Treasury hoards, GSA, etc.) that a disproportionally-large percentage of Morgans have reached the present day without ever seeing circulation. I've always felt that AU58 is somewhat a cop-out grade, awarded too often to coins which are not circulated yet hampered by the complexity of grading coins with such wildly-varying strikes as Morgans. So, in that sense, I agree with you - I believe the majority of AU58's are, in fact, Uncirculated. As for the rest of it, though, bagmarks are part and parcel of Morgan dollar reality. They lived in bags, and sloshing such a bag around only for a moment is perfectly capable of creating these marks. A $1000 bag of Morgans is almost 60lbs. Tossing one of those into a pile is going to wreak havoc on the lower coins in the bag. So, it's simple truth that, up to MS64-ish, the location, quantity and nature of bagmarks is not only a relevant factor in Morgan grading, but an inevitable one. I've been reading this thread closely, if not participating. Earlier, I called the 1901-O in question a "low-end 63." Since, I've looked at it a few more times, and have decided it's probably more "typical" for 63. How do you guys like this one at 63?   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
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but think about where the third party grading companies and we as a group have come to expect, or come to accept am MS63 coin, as a coin with no wear, and we all know every MS63 coin, especially Morgans, while the label states MS-63 the coin clearly exhibits wear. Logic says if the first premise is correct and the second premise is correct, then the conclusion by necessity must also be correct. There is a flawed premise here. Mint state coins by necessity are not circulated. You can be circulated or uncirculated but you can not be both. Please remember, when these coins were minted, transportation was by horse drawn wagon, railroad or steam ship. One thousand coins in a canvas bag weighing roughly eighty pounds were hauled and thrown around and put in to wagons or trains for transport. Bag marks and field abrasions are not considered wear. I think this is one point that has been over looked. Someone brought up the term market grade. Anyone know what it means? if not, the term 'market grade' means a coin is assigned a single grade number which reflects its market price, not necessarily its technical grade. This is a departure from the grading systems outlined in the 1970s and 1980s in Photograde and the Official ANA Grading Standards for United States coins books. Someone brought up the term technical grade. This refers to the Sheldon Scale which is a 70-point scale for grading coins, developed by Dr. William Sheldon in 1949. A slightly modified form of the Sheldon Scale has become the de facto standard for grading U.S. coins today, and is used by the major third party grading services when assigning a grade to a coin. The adjectival grading system was the predecessor to today's 70-point grading scale, and the adjectival terms are still used to help clarify the numeric equivalent. I did not want to make this a tutorial but rather focus on the terms of whether a coin is AU 58 (almost uncirculated) or Mint state. AU-58 (Choice About Uncirculated) - Virtually uncirculated, except for minor wear marks on high points. I listed earlier the high points to look at. Nearly all mint luster must be present, and must have outstanding eye appeal. MS-60 (Mint State Basal) - Coins in this grade are ugly, dinged-up, bag-marked, ill-toned specimens, but they are in mint condition and free of any wear! The grades from MS-60 to MS-70 are all based primarily on eye appeal, quality of luster and or toning as well as the presence or absence of contact marks, hairlines, etc. All coins MS-60 and higher are Mint State coins. Edited by Ozland
01/14/2011 12:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
One could make an argument that the coin in question was market graded. The third party grading companies say they do not market grade, but if not, then why do we have a term called market grade?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Nit picking over the definition of the terms "mint state", "uncirculated" and circulated..... I knew it would come down to this.
Is a coin that sat in a bag in a vault for 100 years truly mint state? Is its state in that bag the state it was in when it was struck or placed in that bag at the mint? Maybe, maybe not, depends on how much throwing around the bag received.
Uncirculated means (to me) that the coin has not been in the hands of the public.... so what is it doing in your hands then? To what degree is circulation measured? Only visually? By whose eyes? This sort of banter could go on forever, and it probably will.
The definitions are different things to different people.... The terms "mint state" and "uncirculated" are a measures of infinite extremes.... their meanings depend on how nit picky and eccentric folks allow themselves to become.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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The third party grading companies say they do not market grade, but if not, then why do we have a term called market grade?
Heh. The TPG's are the only reason the term "market Grade" exists. I just did a random, entirely unscientific survey of Heritage Auctions results. Check this out: Heritage has offered 1871 1884-S auctions, a coin known to be rare in Mint State. Of that 1871, 332, or almost 18%, were AU58. 1883-S (a real sleeper in Mint State) - 148 of 1470, or 10%. 1894 - 103 of 1316, or 8%. 1881-S - 5 of 5881. 1878-S - 18 of 3251. 1921 - 24 of 1651. Um, really? You only get a true AU58 if the coin circulates for a couple/few weeks and then gets pulled and held until the present day. Can we assume that our forefathers knew how rare Mint State 1884-S's would be in a hundred years, and acted accordingly? Or can we assume that TPG's are waffling on the true grade? |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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The definitions are different things to different people.... The terms "mint state" and "uncirculated" are a measures of infinite extremes.... their meanings depend on how nit picky and eccentric folks allow themselves to become. That's a finger on the real problem, zeewool. The definitions themselves are set in stone and unambiguous. Mint State and Uncirculated are by definition interchangeable, and not subject to argument. Either the coin circulated with the public, or it didn't. Mint State/Uncirculated exist until the government releases the coin in the wild. Yes, I can see varying arguments with the term "Mint State," but I don't subscribe to them. It's not an expression of grade. It's an expression of usage, or lack thereof. We needlessly complicate that by choice, and to the detriment of the hobby. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5640 Posts |
"can we assume that TPG's are waffling on the true grade?" BINGO, My point all along, and the proof is in any slabbed coin labeled MS!!! Give that man a prize...............With about 1000 views I really hope some one, besides me, has learned something besides how to discuss terms and definitions, challenge when unsure, question everything......... |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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challenge when unsure, question everything......... I like you. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
1-Assume third party grading companies use their own grading standards
2-As grading companies use their own standards there will be variances relative to each other.
3-Has anyone asked what a Mint state 63 coin should look like? And does Mint state 63 in any date and mint mark look alike all other dates and mint marks?
4-If you don't like it don't buy it.
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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
I'd love to have a complete set of morgans graded MS-63 by any of the top three tpgs, the only problem being that I couldn't show them on here without some people calling them circulated.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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I'd love to have a complete set of morgans graded MS-63 by any of the top three tpgs, the only problem being that I couldn't show them on here without some people calling them circulated. Then only show them someplace where the membership is composed exclusively of grading experts, and where they take TPG grades as Gospel. Neither condition will ever be true here. It's our mission to take care of the newer collector, and to foster an atmosphere of openness where anyone can ask anything they want. For that reason, opinions will be held which aren't as sophisticated as those of more experienced collectors. The members here who have been around the block a time or two are aware of that. It's the reason they stay, not something they put up with. |
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Replies: 136 / Views: 10,886 |
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Posted 01/14/2011 01:31 am
