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"1798 S-161" Live, Or Memorex?

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Valued Member

United States
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 Posted 12/05/2022  6:43 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello Everyone! What do you think... I found this coin live in a ******** auction. I posted the pics in a FB group, and got called all sorts of nasty things (esp. by the Head Coin Guy at the coin firm) when I stated that this thing is not a Genuine US Mint product. It's in an *** holder "VF Details Scratches". I'll point out two things and then I'd like to know what you think: No DBLgC ever had the Mumps like that (see the die tooling at the chin), and there appears to be a crack in the flan diag. under the ribbon, not from being die struck...



Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/05/2022 6:55 pm
Valued Member
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was a documented struck counterfeit for S-161; I have included the image and the atts I identified in my article on these. I post these here but admittedly need to spend a little more time reviewing yours with them.

Any chance of getting an edge view of the one posted?



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United States
229 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Burfle23: I'm sure that this one wasn't struck; latex dies maybe? The coin pictured by you has a normal chin. It IS veryclose though... I thought the Heritage coin was treated with Hydrochloric Acid. Here's the auction link:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cent...ption-071515
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/05/2022 8:02 pm
Valued Member
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply






Edited by burfle23
12/05/2022 9:18 pm
Valued Member
United States
229 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Same dies, maybe more tooling at the chin? Maybe the Heritage coin is a copy of your copy?
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United States
229 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The R in Liberty was recut on the Heritage example. Great, now we have die states of Counterfeit coins. The main reason that I don't think it was die struck is the crack in the field under the ribbon. It just doesn't happen like that.
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/05/2022 8:15 pm
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 Posted 12/05/2022  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
now we have die states of Counterfeit coins.
.

I'm otherwise just lurking on this thread to learn something. Sorry that I don't have any insight.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Valued Member
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have written articles on two deceptive counterfeits with 2 die states each...
Valued Member
United States
229 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I posted that coin to a site where many EACers check in, some in the biz for decades. Where did you publish?
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/05/2022 10:29 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2609 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  10:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seems like the chin was just polished off at the defect in the other example. I'll leave the rest to your capable hands.
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United States
229 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2022  10:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Leaf under T United had its tip repaired as well; the hairline above the forehead has been recut so now it looks like Liberty's wearing a wig, etc. My question is, I guess, how can this (these) fool people long invested in the biz, nevermind the grading company?
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/06/2022 12:11 am
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9437 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2022  12:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
---
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
My coin e-commerce website:https://nummumcoins.com
Let me build your coin e-commerce website: https://nummumcoins.com/ur-site/
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Edited by numismatic student
12/06/2022 12:51 am
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 Posted 12/06/2022  12:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NumismaticStudent: wouldn't you know, my Colonial-collecting friend was asking if Jack Young had seen it; that he must know about it...
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 Posted 12/06/2022  01:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
He has now. I deleted my post because I felt that I overstepped. That's something that he should have revealed although he is probably too humble to come out and say what I said.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
My coin e-commerce website:https://nummumcoins.com
Let me build your coin e-commerce website: https://nummumcoins.com/ur-site/
Help me optimize my photo setup: http://goccf.com/t/411871
Valued Member
United States
229 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2022  02:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was becoming apparent... there should be a section for "What's My Line?" type of posts
Valued Member
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2022  07:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While there are some striking similarities between the OP posted example and the documented counterfeit there are some major differences including the major counterfeit attribution points.

The documented fake was struck from dies made from a known genuine example and the edge helps confirm it struck:



As far as my articles, the majority are published on Coin Week with several also in EAC's Penny-Wise. I posted my summary on the S-161 on the EAC website.

The op example has some areas that look "casty"- would love to see the edge and weigh it, etc. I need to make more time studying this one; thanks for posting and the HA link!

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