Help On Authenticity Of Gothic Crown (1847)

I certainly hope the bosses agree. I think a big enough counter effort might work but there would have to be an approval process. I would not want to accidental have an original appear on the list because someone did not know what it was. Error do happen.

I like the idea of a list that could be reviewed and approved for termination - then the bids could be placed.

I would only want to place bids on confirmed counterfeits where there was no doubt whatsoever. That would prevent someone accidentally buying a fake.

First things first - will it be approved?

I've started a new topic that we can use to report fake coin listings on ebay.

The topic is Fake Listing Alert - eBay (https://goccf.com/t/149608).

EDIT: For some reason my new topic disappeared. Maybe it's being reviewed?

Anyway, new fake listing on ebay, which I reported using the link provided in another thread. Listing id: 111072018026.

Has ebay gone on sabbatical? They seem to be doing nothing about the fake coins I've reported.

I've also sent a message to CCF staff about why my new topic for reporting potential fakes has disappeared, but no reply there either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1847-GREAT-...em2a2cebf7bb

This one seems fishy, Calgary seller, no feedback.

Gremladen That one's definitely a fake. I reported it shortly after it appeared. Unfortunately, in most cases ebay isn't efficient enough to stop the sale before it happens, but I supposed PayPal blocks the seller from collecting the payment.

Jeff, having now worked as an EMR for ebay for 7 months now, I have a new appreciation for the dilemma that they are facing in this process. I am not expressing this with ebay's approval - this is my opinion based on what I have observed as an EMR.

What you are seeking, I believe, is a some form of automatic review process for coins, etc.. Initially I had the same beliefs. It thought it should be easy to take a number of experts and review every coin posted quickly. A computer could be programmed to read language looking for clues and common counterfeit dates could be screened out. This could/would remove or identify coins for more deliberate review. WE might get 90% removed.

That precise process is exactly what ebay CAN NOT DO.

If ebay reviews any items - looking for fakes they would be responsible FOR ALL items. Even 99.9% would be BAD. The law would then make ebay at least partially responsible for the authenticity of coins that are posted and it would make ebay financially liable for sales of fraudulent items. The law suits generated by that belief and the defense of those suits would cause fees to jump. It would make ebay an auctioneer.

The key to the ebay business approach is that ebay is a venue provider. They provide a place for individual entrepreneurs to sell their wares and it in turn relies on the legal principle of "let the buyer beware". The sale is strictly between the seller and the buyer. This is a big flea market in a virtual empty building. ebay wants to be the building - no more.

The panel I am a member of (all professional coin dealers with extensive backgrounds) are UNPAID. We are not in fact actual EMPLOYEES of ebay. They officially employ no one with any level of individual expertise in coins or anything else. The ebay employees take customer reports (TPR reports) and act on those reports by contacting members of the panel of experts. We have to convince the manager one way or the other that the item should or should not be removed. The process can be time consuming. How do you convince someone who has never seen an 8R that a coin posted is a fake? That is NOT a 10 second process.

If the world were less litigious and people were not greedy looking to make a buck off law suits or if there was even a way for all users of ebay to indemnify ebay from all law suits (which can not be legally accomplished in our society) - it might be possible to screen out far more. But we could NEVER achieve 100%.

The system is totally dependent on reports generated by individuals who are NOT ebay employees - so I can still generate reports. But I can not just say - remove this one - I still have to prove to the manager that removal is correct. If I do 20 of these a day that is about all I could do or I would not have time for my own business.

Finally there is work load. There are on average 600-1,000 coins per day posted in the sections I look at daily for my own purposes of identifying collectible silver counterfeits that circulated in the US before 1857. Compared to all of ebay that is a pittance. I spend on average 3-5 hours for the process - every day 365 days a year.

So what would it take to do the same for all coins? Today a search of ebay yields 687,000 items under "coins". The 687,000 coins posted over a period of time averaging no more than 10 days so that is roughly 68,700 a day. If each expert could do 600 per hour or 10 coins a second (a stretch because I average 200 per hour now) and worked 8 productive hours a day that is 4,800 coins per day per expert. That would be 14 experts required at these super human speeds. At my speed 42 experts - just for coins.

Would anyone out there take the job for NO PAY?

So do we want a much more costly ebay or do we train buyers to be MORE diligent at looking for scams?

Hi Jeff,

Multiple names would of course violate ebay rules and of course I can not say that you should. However, I have recently discovered a group of 121 inter-related names providing feedback to one another and which just so happen to sell identical counterfeits using identical pictures. They have street addresses in Australia, California and Canada (east and west coasts) and in some cases already investigated that the street addresses, accounts and names were basically borrowed by a Chinese national to set up a PayPal confirmed address.

This is an organized VERY large group of people selling garbage and it always comes back to a single address in Peking. But NOTHING can be done legally. What they are doing is in fact a LEGAL business in China. It is legal to export such material. The only place the law could be invoked would be as a violation of US law when the coin entered the country. But in that case, customs seizes the fake, hands it to the Secret Service and the buyer does not even get a fake. The buyer gets zip. The illegal item is after all addressed to the buyer - it is possible if unlikely that the buyer would be charged with the violation of the law.

Thank you swanny, you let me to study this old thread again.
No, both of my coins have this small "w". I just mean my two coins have different alignment (or orientation) with respect to the "w". If I keep the two "w" in one direction, the other side of the two coins would become reverse to each other.

What Tom Goodheart had identified the characteristics of this high tech. forgery. I think the most prominent difference for the two coins is the edge letters.

Swanny, would you show pictures of your coins here (esp. the edge) for us to identify?

Henry