Help On Authenticity Of Gothic Crown (1847)

Have a look at this thread:

https://goccf.com/t/89709


Do take note of advice given here but realize that we can only comment based on the photos and as such our comments have limited utility.
I would suggest your brother measure the coins specific gravity and check that that measure is appropriate for the coin. Search Swamperbobs: posts he has outlined the technique involved a number of times. If your brother has already won the auction then he may well find he has to pay for it and then check to see if its genuine. It is much better to "kick the tires" before bidding than the other way round. It is quite possible your Brother may find he has paid a very high price for experience.

I personally would be very suspicious.

Particularly if when you say "won in an auction", you mean ebay?



My thanks go to the member of another forum for the images posted.

@ austrokiwi, Tom Goodheart, peter1234 : thank you for your valuable inputs.
@ Tom Goodheart, yes, it was ebay auction.

This is really a dilemma to me to identify this coin. What Tom Goodheart pointed out there are some silver remnant on the coin is the fact but can this be a strong proof to say a Gothic crown is fake? Many genuine coins happen to have some tiny remnant silver on both sides, I don't know why but this is also a fact to know. I think we need experts in this field to tell us why there are sometimes happened to have tiny silver remnant on a coin.

I have two Gothic crowns, one is mirror proof and the other is believed a frosted proof. Both coins have same weight, same diameter and no great difference by the ring test. The S.G. of the frosted proof is 10.224. I don't measure the S.G. of the mirror proof because I am sure is real.

According to the book "Concraft's 1997 - Standard Catalogue of English & UK Coins 1066 to Date" by R. Lobel and partners, the collecting hints point out that there are many forgeries. It also stated "a genuine 1847 lettered edge coin will usually 'look' old and have sharp edge lettering in the higher grades. The 'V' of 'Victoria' will align approximately with 'et' on the edge and with 'tur' of 'tueatur' on the reverse. My mirror proof complies with this 'criterion', I believe it is genuine. See picture below:


The frosted proof does not meet this criterion so I suppose it is a forgery. I compare both coins in parallel and find some differences between them. See the followings:

First: both coins have different alignment. The left proof species is in coin alignment, the other one is medal alignment.


Second: very detailed imitation, the silver remnant adjacent to letter 't' of both coins.

Third: there is a dot under the date from the frosted coin but not seen in another one.


Both coins share extreme similarities from both sides but the major difference is from the edge of them. What I say the real one is on the top. See pictures...







I am always pondering why the frosted proof Gothic crwon was made so nice to an extent that it will not be recognised as a forgery if not compared with the real one. I find no evidence by technical terms to say it is a forgery. But why this frosted proof not to further imitating other details such as the alignment, the edge letters style from the real one? So, I tend to believe the frosted species is real but is another version of the Gothic crown. It is probably the second Gothic issue (VGCR-065) in the Coincraft's 1997; the mirror proof species is classified as VGCR-060 in that book.

How do you think?

It looks so good, a high standard of forgery, can I get a more enlarged pictures?

Thank you swamperbob for the pictures sent. I can't find the same nick in my coin. I would say the tall edge lettering is the most suspicious evidence to tell this is a forgery. But I don't know why ther counterfeiters not to miss this element to forge.

@SwamperBob: I was one of the bidders on the fake you guys terminated on ebay. Thanks!

At the same time, I bid on (and won, unfortunately) another listing that showed the location of the "coin" as Canada. However, when the envelope arrived, the paperwork was clearly for Bejing! This explains why Canada Post did not have a record of the tracking number. Sheesh.

NGC confirmed my worst fear: That the coin was fake. (Had I caught that the envelope was from China instead of from Canada, I would have refused delivery. Not sure how I missed something so obvious.)

I'm fighting now for a refund, but here's the address in Bejing that was on the customs form. Note that the address was printed, not handwritten, so it could actually be the address of the source for these fakes. (Anyone ever contact the Bejing police to report them? I may try, after I see what happens with my refund. Maybe I'll use map software to see if the address even exists before I take any steps.)

Sender: Wang Pengjin
Room B601, No. 5 Wanhong Road
Chaoyang District, Beijing (China, of course) Postal code 100004

Unfortunately, there is no phone number on the form. Do they have law enforcement in their pockets? They seem to operate pretty openly.

Regards,

Jeff B

wonghinghi I still see both of the coins you posted as counterfeits. The coin on the right is the easy one - really bad - the other is much better but still bad.

There are other features of the counterfeit that prove the forgery but so far none have been published and we do not want to release all of the details in the event this site or others are monitored for clues by some of the forgers on how to improve the coin.