What Is Wrong With NGC? 1829 Zs Ao 8 Reales

I think NGC has a re-slabbing service, no ?

The coin is gone again from ebay.

I got a call from a person at NGC today they read both threads on the forum and want to get the situation corrected. They want to get the counterfeit coins out of the holders. They agree the first coin is a counterfeit. The second one they have some hesitation about and want to make an out of holder inspection.

They are asking the owner of the second coin to return it to them and they indicated they would do an SG test and a point XRF test to prove what it was. They also indicated the graffiti was missed and that the coin would have to be regraded at a minimum. The numerical grade was not correct.

They will not reholder the coin if it is a counterfeit and would reimburse the owner for the value.

I suggested they consult Riddell as well and they said they would see if the graders had that.

I was pleased to learn that they do have the ability to do Specific Gravity and that they had an XRF capable of doing small point analyses.

I offered to review all 8Rs they had encapsulated if they could give me access to the photographs.

Matt - I am probably one of the few people in the U.S. that when they get a regular issue coin in the mail (i.e., regal) I curse myself out for missing something that made it real during my purchase <VVBG>. Right now I have ~ a 250 Piece World Contemporary Counterfeit Collection (not including the GNLs) with all specimens XRF verified as to their compositions. This includes some of these recent Chinese fakes just thrown in because they were so well made. I try to purchase just pre-1800 since the post-1800 pieces are just too common and BLAND for my tastes <VVBG>.

Being from France you may not know that Eric P. Newman was a GIANT in U.S. Colonial Coinage as you will soon see in the next holdings that cross the Heritage block from his collection. He was one of this first people in the U.S. to define the U.S. made copper counterfeits along with Bob Vlack that we now call Machins Mills from Newburgh, NY. He also coined the terms Tory & Bungtowns describing the British copper halfpence and farthings from England during the 18thC. that made up at least 50% of the coinage in the U.S. (13) Colonies prior to the U.S. Mint starting in 1792 that were exported from England to the U.S. Colonies.

So ... I suspect Newman knew this was a CC 8R - he just had no idea what to call it or where it came from IMO. Just a thought Matt on why it got into a TPG ... I met him several times normally at American Numsimatic Society events ... He made an appearance or two at the Norweb Sales in the 1980's ... but not at the Ford sales that I can recall in terms of U.S. Colonial purchasing. Most of his coins I believe are primarily from the Colonel Green estate ... that is the guy with that U.S. 1913 Nickel story I know all you Frenchman are totally familair with over there in France ... <VVBG>.

John Lorenzo
United States

I think the Sheffield once its fully understood by everyone they all will have to ADJUST accordingly ... the collector, dealer, third party graders and the auction houses ... each in their own ways.

John Lorenzo
United States

Just a little news on the NGC front. The shop that I authenticate for in Raleigh recently submitted a group of US coins for authentication by NGC. All of the coins were real but 5 came back with errors in the labels included in the slabs. Of these 4 were close to identical errors.

These coins all graded MS 65 or better:

1931-S Lincoln Cent - called 1931-D
1943 Steel cent - called 1943-S
1943-S Steel cent - Called 1943
1955-S Lincoln Cent - called 1955

The 5th which was a 1979-S dollar coin with a clear S Type 2 which came back labeled Type 1. The type 1 is of course not worth grading even at MS69.

The last coin you might be able to excuse if you are very forgiving but the other 4 seem to be beyond any excuse and they all came back in one shipment at one time.

Anyone got a worse horror story than this? Does anyone know what is happening at NGC?

More like "take your seeing eye dog to work day"

This can't be a label mix-up, or the online certificates would read something different than the coffins.
Did you checked those ?

As a wrap up to this thread, I would like to state for the record that Mike Dunigan and I spoke personally at the US Mexican Numismatic Association meeting and that he completely agrees with me that the 1829 Zs AO is a counterfeit. He said this in the presence of Jay Turner a finalizer for NGC who was also at the meeting.

I wrote to Jay after the coin appeared for a third time on ebay and his efforts got the coin pulled once again.

I want to thank Mike Dunigan for his willingness to speak with directly on the subject and to clearly indicate that the coin is a counterfeit NOT a mint made item.