| Author |
 Replies: 66 / Views: 9,709 |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I've been playing with the zoom, the coin is indeed impressive !! Nice catch :)
Regarding the test, considering the peeling ... 1% will be still conclusive to figure out what's inside the box, no ? :)
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
The 1% has to do with the Kearfott instruments and the detection limits. You just can't XRF a coin in a TPG holder ... well based on my experience no matter where you do the testing. The EDAX instruments were state of the art (i.e., and newer) so detection limits of accuracy to 0.01% were possible and accurate Pt/Au confirmations were no problem with these 8 Reale CCs. JPL Edited by colonialjohn
02/13/2014 6:23 pm
|
|
Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Quote:The 1829 Zs AO has re-appeared on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/400663190161I presume that Bruce Raplee feels justified in re-posting the coin since Mike Dunigan approved of it. I have written today to NGC to see if they will reply to me. I tried to write to Bruce but ebay would not allow me to write to him. I presume I am blocked. Could someone else try to ask Bruce a question to see if it goes through. Also if you agree with me the coin is a counterfeit would you please report it. No problem swamperbob, I have also reported this coin. As always, Thank you for all your knowledge and expertise on this series. |
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
Well NGC wrote to me today about my post on the forum and wanted photographs of the counterfeit coins. So we are getting some attention anyway.
Regarding making contact with Mike Dunigan I have tried calling a couple times but there is no answer. I will keep trying. Does anyone know if Mike has an e-mail?
John - too bad that the plastic is not clear enough to shoot through. I presume that is an optical refraction issue so that there is no material that would not result in this distortion.
Thanks to all who agree the coin is a counterfeit.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bob - Yes XRF or SEM/EDS can only be shot USING coins in the raw out of these holders IMO.
JPL
|
|
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
I don't know about NGC policies (or those of the seller of this coin on ebay) - but what would happen if one bought the coin, cracked it out of the holder and made a SG test, which (as I understand) would reveal that it is a silver-plated coin with a copper core? It would still be clear that it's the same coin, with the graffitis on them, so nobody could cry "switch". Would it be possible to return the coin to the seller or to NGC for some sort of refund or compensation? After all, it is sold as a good coin... |
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I think NGC has a re-slabbing service, no ?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bob - I know you waited all your life to prove that Sheffields, Riddells & GNL varieities exist in TPG's but let nature take its course after the ANS/GNL book is published - every Heritage or Stacks Sale in 2012/2013/2014 with World Coinage on Portait 8 Reales if say over 25 specimens or so I have spotted a "suspected" or "confirmed" Sheffield. It was easier of course in live lot viewings. Again having said that these will become collector items like that Newman/Heritage piece in an NGC holder. A Mint State Sheffield in an NGC holder is a specilaist prize IMO - true - if the value starts to go above say $500 or so... then there may be recertification issues or monetary reimbursement concerns ... |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The coin is gone again from ebay. I got a call from a person at NGC today they read both threads on the forum and want to get the situation corrected. They want to get the counterfeit coins out of the holders. They agree the first coin is a counterfeit. The second one they have some hesitation about and want to make an out of holder inspection. They are asking the owner of the second coin to return it to them and they indicated they would do an SG test and a point XRF test to prove what it was. They also indicated the graffiti was missed and that the coin would have to be regraded at a minimum. The numerical grade was not correct. They will not reholder the coin if it is a counterfeit and would reimburse the owner for the value. I suggested they consult Riddell as well and they said they would see if the graders had that. I was pleased to learn that they do have the ability to do Specific Gravity and that they had an XRF capable of doing small point analyses. I offered to review all 8Rs they had encapsulated if they could give me access to the photographs. |
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
John, you should hold tight to your coin, unless you want it un-slabbed :P
That's actually a really good news, at least they acknowledge that something went wrong, and are going to --cover-- ... erm ... correct that ;)
Maybe they grew too fast, frankly with all the coin types for all over the world, I hardly see how they can handle everything correctly ...
Unless they have enough specialists per type handling those ... but I don't think that's possible.
At least, the graffiti shouldn't have passed - and that's not an authentication issue.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Matt - I am probably one of the few people in the U.S. that when they get a regular issue coin in the mail (i.e., regal) I curse myself out for missing something that made it real during my purchase <VVBG>. Right now I have ~ a 250 Piece World Contemporary Counterfeit Collection (not including the GNLs) with all specimens XRF verified as to their compositions. This includes some of these recent Chinese fakes just thrown in because they were so well made. I try to purchase just pre-1800 since the post-1800 pieces are just too common and BLAND for my tastes <VVBG>. Being from France you may not know that Eric P. Newman was a GIANT in U.S. Colonial Coinage as you will soon see in the next holdings that cross the Heritage block from his collection. He was one of this first people in the U.S. to define the U.S. made copper counterfeits along with Bob Vlack that we now call Machins Mills from Newburgh, NY. He also coined the terms Tory & Bungtowns describing the British copper halfpence and farthings from England during the 18thC. that made up at least 50% of the coinage in the U.S. (13) Colonies prior to the U.S. Mint starting in 1792 that were exported from England to the U.S. Colonies. So ... I suspect Newman knew this was a CC 8R - he just had no idea what to call it or where it came from IMO. Just a thought Matt on why it got into a TPG ... I met him several times normally at American Numsimatic Society events ... He made an appearance or two at the Norweb Sales in the 1980's ... but not at the Ford sales that I can recall in terms of U.S. Colonial purchasing. Most of his coins I believe are primarily from the Colonel Green estate ... that is the guy with that U.S. 1913 Nickel story I know all you Frenchman are totally familair with over there in France ... <VVBG>. John Lorenzo United States |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
John - I make the same comments when I accidentally buy a real coin so you are not alone. I have gotten in touch with Mike Dunigan thanks to a member of the forum. The long and short of it was that Mike did not intend to indicate the coin was 100% authentic. Here are his replies to me so you can read them yourself. First letter: Quote:
Just to clarify my stand on this matter , I said , or intended to say the coin appears genuine ,
being struck from Zs mint dies . I could not confirm or condemn the coin in the holder without
the opportunity to ring it , smell it , better examine or test it . Furthermore , I suggested sending
the coin to NGC for testing . I am completely open minded on the subject of this coin . From that it appears we were all reading too much into Mike's reply. Second letter: Quote:
I did not intend this for publication. If so I would have been more specific and detailed in my answer. Bruce wanted me to look at the coin and give an opinion.
Since there was no way , in my opinion , to give a precise answer with the coin in the slab , I told him that and gave him my opinion based on what I could observe. As I said , I have an open mind on this one , but I do believe it was produced from mint dies . Third reply. Quote:
Bob ,
Go ahead and put what I said to you on the Forum . I just don't want anyone thinking that I had signed off on the authenticity of something that I clearly did not. What I was trying to say was that if I had realized my response to Bruce was going to be "published" I would have chosen my words more carefully and made my caveat stronger.
Also , I would have avoided the use of "100%" which could be interpreted as an affirmation about authenticity (as opposed to die source) that was not intended.
I will be pleased to discuss with you the subject of mint die debased coins . Also , your thoughts on full weight "restrikes" made for the China trade
would be very interesting to me .The China connection might explain certain excellent quality , but , obviously, not mint made 8 Reales , that have puzzled me for years .
Regarding NGC , they just want the fakes out of their holders . I am sure that you can come to an arrangement with them in which they remove the coin from the holder , keep the tag, and return the coin to you . This would , in my opinion , be in everyone's best interest .
Best Regards ,
Mike
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I think the Sheffield once its fully understood by everyone they all will have to ADJUST accordingly ... the collector, dealer, third party graders and the auction houses ... each in their own ways.
John Lorenzo
United States
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, great to see this. You've gotten definite traction on this with NGC AND Dunigan...
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Just a little news on the NGC front. The shop that I authenticate for in Raleigh recently submitted a group of US coins for authentication by NGC. All of the coins were real but 5 came back with errors in the labels included in the slabs. Of these 4 were close to identical errors. These coins all graded MS 65 or better: 1931-S Lincoln Cent - called 1931-D 1943 Steel cent - called 1943-S 1943-S Steel cent - Called 1943 1955-S Lincoln Cent - called 1955 The 5th which was a 1979-S dollar coin with a clear S Type 2 which came back labeled Type 1. The type 1 is of course not worth grading even at MS69. The last coin you might be able to excuse if you are very forgiving but the other 4 seem to be beyond any excuse and they all came back in one shipment at one time. Anyone got a worse horror story than this? Does anyone know what is happening at NGC? |
| |
Replies: 66 / Views: 9,709 |
First Page
Previous Page
Posted 02/13/2014 6:14 pm
