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 Replies: 10 / Views: 2,729 |
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New Member
United States
20 Posts |
I found this coin in the junk section of a world coin dealer's case. It seemed like a cast contemporary counterfeit to me. The surfaces looked cast, the rim disturbances are not from impact, and the metal seemed brassy. Plus, poor Louis has about five chins, which seemed like it could have resulted from sloppy casting. So I took a chance on it, figuring it was a contemporary cast counterfeit. But I wasn't 100% sure. Then this last weekend I was at the Whitman Coin Expo in Baltimore. I had the coin in my case, and Phillip Mossman was scanning my coins, and all of a sudden he stops and says, "Wait one minute!" He runs over to the ANS table and brings back a copy of his book From Crime to Punishment -- Counterfeit and Debased Currencies in Colonial and Pre-Federal America. And sure enough, there on page 65, is a plate of an example of this coin, shown as representing French counterfeits. It was awesome!   |
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Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts |
From your picture of it, it could just as well be a genuine worn example - have a few similar to that one myself (and clearly not from the USA). The only thing which looks a little odd is as you say the chin. Any other specific markers?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Nope its cast. VERY NICE and RARE. CORRECT same in-gate as Phil's coin (Figure 4.2) a 1793 Louis XVI two-sous. 100% certainty.
I will be expanding Phil's Foreign CC section in my new book with tons of Material Analysis data from my 300 Foreign CC Collection in Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies - Revisited due out in 2016.
Send me a picture I will include in the new book. Just need your FULL NAME in the E-Mail. If you have a pedigree - INCLUDE IT. Also the weight and diameter.
John Lorenzo
United States
GNL Book Co-Author.
Edited by colonialjohn
11/05/2014 01:10 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
The color of the alloy looks OK, but lots of fakes were made of brass as well. I can't help for correct weight, unfortunately, but it it was a counertfeit, it should weigh less than the standard 2 sous. The fields suggest 'cast', but I can't see evidence of a sprue. The edge needs to be examined.
NOTE: There are many contemporary counterfeits of both British and French coins of this period.
Edited by sel_69l
11/05/2014 08:28 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3546 Posts |
 eastrockcoins I hope you continue to enjoy and benefit from CCF. mdpmedia |
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
The chin might be a result of a broken die, the casting bubbles in the fields might be just corrosion. Without finding a specimen in a better shape it would be really difficult to be sure, that this is a CCF. I have seen all kinds of unusual 2 sols coins some of which must have circulated for a century (considering their wear). Remember this is the first date of the type, which suggests a strong wear and makes a broken die very probable. Still it is a nice place to begin with a reasearch in this area. If one finds a well preserved specimen with the same casting marks than the confirmation will be there for a CCF, but if one finds a legit specimen with a similar die brake than we would heave the confirmation of a regular coin. Both would be interesting and possible. The color of the coin is indeed as it should be, as we know it. These coins were often crudely struck, are mostly well worn and sometimes made of various materials such as gun metal.
Edited by coinworldtv
11/05/2014 05:17 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3546 Posts |
Quote:
...made of various materials such as gun metal. Would it be incorrect to assume that the makers of these specimens rounded up old and worn out guns and consequently recycled the metal portion to form these coins in an attempt to cut down on overall manufacturing costs? If this is not the case, what properties within gun metal prompted them to go this route? mdpmedia |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Gun metal does not lend itself to be casted.
Gun metal generally is considered: Cu (88%), Sn (10%) and Zn (2%). Wilkepedia.
Gun metal was an alloy that evolved from the 'low-zinc / high-tin' brasses of the
medieval period - precisely the brasses of which most jetons were made until well into the
fifteenth century. Thereafter, this general class of alloy was retained principally for
making large cast artefacts - such as the guns, which were to give the alloy its modern
name, gun metal.39 Tokens, jetons, badges and other small thin die-struck artefacts were
now normally made in 'higher-zinc / minimal tin' forms of brass. (Mitchiner).
Gun Money as many of you know supposedly uses gun metal and has been verified with this general empirical Wilepedia alloy from specimens in my collection. This piece is different and is cast (bronze cast but unlikely a brass cast) IMO.
This is one reason for the Forgotten Book in 2016 to expound on Mossman's brief treatment of the items he has selected many without XRF analysis. I believe I have this type verified in my own World CC Collection - need to check.
See Mossman's treatment of English/Irish Counterfeit Halfpence in Cast in a past Colonial Newslettervia via the ANS for a good treatment of casting technology, specimen overvies and XRF results.
John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
11/05/2014 1:06 pm
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New Member
 United States
20 Posts |
Wow. Thanks everyone for the responses. Here are some (attempted) photos of the edge. The first one is the top edge where there seems to be a lip that may be the remnant of a sprue. The second photo is the bottom edge where there seems to be some remnant of a exit hole. Thanks for all the input.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I think the edge shots seal the deal on this coin.
CCF cast copy.
I would also not want to dispute with Phil Mossman on this coin - it is in his wheelhouse for sure. He is not someone who makes errors like that.
He edited our book and Doctor Mossman is nothing if he is not precise.
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,729 |
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Posted 11/05/2014 01:09 am
