1802 8 Real

GR-58 - I just checked our database and with realeswatcher giving it a Mexico City Mint and FT assayer its Unlisted (i.e., non-GNL listed) in our upcoming ANS CC8R book. Its easily a $100+ coin for several reasons - its a unique GNL variety, it has a rare alloy combination of silver splash over a debased alloy of copper or bronze and its CRUDE. The more crude a portrait and its motifs the more expensive the TAG. E-Mail me in Mid February I am tapped out after dropping $3000 at the NYITL. The PayPal check is fixed for $100. Contact me through my current E-Bay listings. Congratulations on a new GNL variety and a very desirable one at that based on alloy/crudeness.

John Lorenzo
United States

Dang it, that $100 offer has gotten me inspired to look for some really horrible cc 8R's, so off to Berk I go. Too bad there isn't the same level of interest in horrible cc French coins.

At the least I know I'll get a pocket pirate quality 8R for melt, though I might have to settle for a genuine one with lots of chop marks.

EDIT: the 8R selection in junk was limited to one scratchy coin, but the $30 4R's were plentiful. There was a dodgy 1773 Potosi - underweight, thin, large diameter and appeared burnt - but I ended up buying a full weight 1807 Potosi.

I second what John has to say. The coin is a new GNL variety. It does however use the same punch set that was employed on the 1802 Obverse E coin which is in my collection. It too is unique. The same punch was however used on other dates some of which are a bit more common and available in better grades.

I usually start at $100 for new GNL types even when doggy. I do this because I don't know if I will ever see that type again. I go up much higher if they are in better shape.

Several of the higher grade coins from the Ringo collection brought from $400-500 even though they were very common varieties. The coins in that sale tended to sell by grade more than rarity.

When it comes to CCC varieties condition is not everything. Condition really only matters when there are two or more surviving originals of a type. Then there is a choice, but when there is only one known and another may never be discovered - how do you bid?

I have been collecting CCC's since about 1960. In that time, especially at the outset, I let several coins go because they were not great shape. In some cases I have been waiting 50 years for a second one to appear.

GR58 It is a new GNL variety simply because we did not list one like it when we were assembling a list of known counterfeits for the book.

We know our list is not complete. But we listed 539 counterfeit varieties. The Ringo sale has added another 30 coins. There are at least 25 others that I could not get permission to use in the book - they exist but I can not publish them. I own an additional 50 varieties that I did not include because of incomplete data. I preferred to limit my examples to absolutely rock solid forgeries.

After all that, a comparison with every counterfeit I have a record of leaves me with NO match to this coin. I did indicate that the King Punch matches a known type but the die pair used here is new.

How many new varieties remain to be discovered? How many GNL's will there be?

I don't know how many, but I believe there are a considerable number left to be brought out to light. I would not be shocked to find we could double our present number. Remember many of these coins are overlooked - located in junk boxes - passed over by serious collectors.

I have been hunting personally for 50 years - but until the advent of the internet, I was limited by distance as to how many I could locate. In the last 20 years, I have located at least 5 times as many as in the 30 years prior. For the book we catalogued 12 large collections, we also had access to the ANS archive and all their counterfeits.

Over the 150 years when these coins were money I believe millions of counterfeits were produced. But survival rates are VERY LOW. The reason for that is logical. Early counterfeits always contained some silver and identified counterfeits were reclaimed to recover whatever value they contained. No one collected counterfeits until very recently so they were not preserved except accidentally.

The variety in this case uses a portrait that is seen on several different dies. I do not believe the dies are hubbed but that the same matrix may have been in use to make several very similar dies.

Bob - on this 1802 from RW that is not the infamous drooping window die? <BG>.

Unless I am getting,iced signals .. There seems to be interest in this coin ...more than I have.

PM me if so