Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsVancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Specializing in Modern Numismatics 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1819 Large Cent, Odd Pattern On Reverse

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 18 / Views: 2,860Next Topic Page 2 of 2
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2014  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list
Post mint damage, cut a LC with a sharp object and it raises the metal on both sides of the cut, as the coin wears in circulation the cut disappears and whats left is the 2 raised sides melding into one raised line/cut.
Edited by 1893S
03/23/2014 5:27 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2014  6:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
But a mesh pressed into a large cent would leave raised diamonds, not incuse.
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2014  6:51 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list
The "diamonds" are to consistent to be PMD.
swcoin.ecrater.com
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2014  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list
There are many hand tools that could displace the copper in this cent in this fashion, I'm thinking a file like tool, leaving the copper metal raised and not incuse. The damage wouldn't necessarily be displaced down into the coin but most likely to the sides
Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2014  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
A file. I guess that could have done it.
And the incuse portions of the pattern seem to create voids in the coin's devices, such as the leaves and letter C. Damage to the surface of the die would likely have spared the devices.
Edited by philadelphian
03/23/2014 9:34 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2014  12:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
Welcome to Coin Community, Lustre.

I am utterly fascinated by this one, and as yet unwilling to commit to any certainty regarding how it came to be.

An experiment: Take a compass or (preferably) a divider, and carefully adjust it to perfect vertical when observing from the side. A divider by nature should do this. Set one leg on one of the "hollows" in the waffle, and one leg on the field of the coin. I think the field southwest of the O on ONE - below and right of the large leaf, the darker area - would be the most consistent location for the second leg. With the coin on a flat surface, if your divider can rest in those two places and still appear perfectly vertical - meaning the field and the place inside the waffle are at the same level - I think a strong argument can be made that the waffle was originally on the die. If the divider is not level, further thinking is necessary.

Either way, Occam's Razor says that we have to assume PMD is the cause. I'm not yet ready to embrace that assumption, though.
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2014  12:26 am  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list
It could have been a vice or similar device pressed (hard) into the coin but one can only assume there would be a similar pattern on the obverse as well.
swcoin.ecrater.com
New Member
Estonia
2 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2014  04:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lustre to your friends list
The experiment with a caliber was inconclusive - the caliber too big, the hollows too shallow.
But if you look at the area at northwest of "N" on the coin, the indentations
appear to be pressed deeper than the surrounding plain. Also IMHO the mesh pattern is
definitely the result of pressing (or hit by a powerful blow) and not cutting.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2014  06:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list
Could it have been a strike through a piece of cloth? The diamonds and lines are not uniform and kind of remind me of some sort of twine.

Edit: to CCF!
Edited by CoinsKelly
03/24/2014 06:54 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2014  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
It's not a vice, or we'd see damage in the exact same place on the obverse. The fact that it is raised stumps me. Maybe a peice of foreign material (mesh, something hard) came in between the die and the coin, pressed into the die instead of the coin, and became dislodged soon after a few more coins were struck, thus giving this raised pattern seen here. That is just a hypothesis. I don't see how Newcomb would have missed this one.

Another posibility is that is also a piece of copper mesh melded to the coin. In that case, it may be PMD.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2014  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
"Could it have been a strike through a piece of cloth? The diamonds and lines are not uniform and kind of remind me of some sort of twine."

If it was mesh contemporary to the coin, how uniform do you expect it to be in 1819?
Pillar of the Community
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2014  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list
I do not the mesh/cloth would have been uniform back then so that is why I am leaning towards something that happened during the minting process. The picture does not look like PMD to me.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2014  11:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list
Mutilation of Large Cents is commonly seen. This coin exhibits nothing more. With the pattern covering the C and E in Cents it's a telltale sign for me that this is PMD>
Pillar of the Community
United States
9793 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2014  01:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list
PMD no doubt, not to say a new variety of a Large Cent couldn't come to light, but they are the most studied coin series in the entire history of United States coinage. To me it looks like PMD as well, now if this coin was in AU condition I think we could see easily how the damage was done, but the wear has made it appear to be more than it really is. I think it was likely squeezed in a vice - leather or wood on the other side to protect the obverse, IMO.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
03/27/2014 01:33 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
2077 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2014  11:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldSkoolMadSkilz to your friends list
It's PMD caused by a vice. Someone clamped something that they didn't want damaged so they surrounded it by two large cents. The pattern on the vice pushed into the surfaces and forced copper into the vice jaw faces.
Page 2 of 2   Previous TopicReplies: 18 / Views: 2,860Next Topic Page 2 of 2
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.36 seconds to rattle this change. Forums