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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Impressive. You have scored 100%. The one question that stumped you was the fact what we have in our collections today or see around is simply a subset of the total minted obviously that may? have sat around for 10-20 years after striking before Newby brought them to West Jersey (U.S.) ... most left in England/Ireland were probably destroyed - only the Newby pieces remain for our collections? If you trace the top 12 farthings in the condition census like the Norweb AU's and Garett:80, Picker ... most have pedigrees basically to Englsnd cabinets or on THAT SIDE of the pond ... obviously anything in West Jersey was heavily circulated (Newby Hoard). Just a thought ...
Analysis ... in progress ...
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1324 Posts |
Don't have much to add - other than they were demonetised on the Isle of Man by act of Tynwald (on 24th June 1679) from 1st Jan 1680.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Yes - Andy - and shortly thereafter we see Newby with several barrels of St. Patricks heading to West Jersey (USA) <BG>.
AMIDA17 - if you google microstructure,metallography,coin you will see ancient papers verifying manufacturing proceses. Its more difficult when you proceed forward in time with more complicated ore mixing but initial results show similar microstructures between Cromwell Era farthings and St. Pat Farthings. Additionally - never have done a XRF or SEM/EDS on that brass splasher on the larger sized halfpence. Current thinking is that now they are both considered halfpence (Lupia Study). No big revelation here as the WEIGHTS of these pieces never SYNCED as halfpence to farthing ... of the small to larger size pieces.
Every manufacturing process like a human being has its OWN distinctive fingerprint ... in progress ...
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
The West NJ legislature was first reluctant but also in need of a circulating form of money. They were approved fairly quickly for circulation. Of the Halfpenny and Farthing, we know that the Halfpenny was definitely used as there is evidence of a few found on known Colonial sites. Where these were struck is still up for debate but I'm inclined to believe it was either the Tower Mint or somewhere in Ireland. When they were struck varies. Since they are part of the US Colonial types, I'll move to US Classic. Here is mine:  swcoin.ecrater.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
From the West Jersey Legislature, 1682: Quote:
Mark Newbie's half pence shall, from and after the said eighteenth instant (May 18, 1682), pass for half pence current pay of this province; provided he, the said Mark, give sufficient security to the Speaker of the House for the use of the General Assembly from time to time being; that he, the said Mark, his executors and administrators, shall and will change the said half pence for pay equivalent upon demand; and provided also, that no person or persons be hereby obliged to take more than five shillings in one payment. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3229 Posts |
Great thread! Thanks!  Much new info for me  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Philly - Remember Lupia's conclusions both indicate the small and large St.Pats are BOTH halfpence struck at different time periods. You could debate this but to me its unimportant since my goal is to publish a small benchmark paper showing the Microstructure (i.e., microscopic alloys configuration) between Charles II COPPER coinage and these St. Pats. Remember also in Phil Mossman's first Encyclopedia where the weights NEVER match up with one another as a halfpence and farthing as with all other coinages ... ALMOST? as if they were commemoratives for the Irish people. If possible I will also take a look at the molten brushed on brass? splasher which only appears on the copper issues. Additionally the weight range of the silver pieces is LARGE - another mystery but as Jeff Rock of California has pointed out presentation pieces can vary in weight as with these silver St. Pats. Presentation pieces for the silver alloys? Very logical ...
It does keep coming up Cromwell/Charles II and those poor Irish people under English rule ...
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
John, "halfpence/farthing" are likely just later, numismatic terms for these issues anyway. As v noted, Newby may have only brought the one size with him to America anyway, to distribute from the very first "bank of issue" in America, his log cabin in Camden County. And what was really being said there in the West Jersey Assembly (which wouldn't even be joined to the East Jersey Legislature for a united New Jersey government until the reign of Queen Anne!) was, "the province needs small change, so we're all going to call Newby's Irish things "halfpence," and give them halfpence value in trade."
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Philly - yes - he may have just brought the SMALLER halfpence - as they are MUCH MORE COMMON than the larger halfpence which could be a strong argument for a SLIGHLY? different striking period? 100% agree in your last post.
Probably around September 2014 I will present my findings or further analysis of these pieces at some gathering in NJ by the OCEAN (Really).
My only concern is to present a benchmark paper - did they come from Blondeau's minting operation via Material Analysis ...
The rest of this is re-hashed loose ends ... <VVBG>.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
An interesting thought from a collector:
I still keep thinking about Silver, large or small St. Pats (not wanting to dredge up denominations)...................what kind of entity in Ireland (or with influence over Ireland) would have widely distributed Manufacturing (because of the large number of fairly scarce varieties), but one unified marketing message (or iconography, imagery etc.)........and it keeps coming back to some king of Church and parish thing for whatever purpose.
And the Church certainly likes to present things.
JMO
JPL Response: Just a typical English/Irish coinage relationship in the mid-late 1600's? ... <VVBG>.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
John
Are you going to analyze any of the Dublin produced, post Restoration, tradesman tokens for comparison?
Vinnie
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
For the Material Analysis each coin is cut in half, polished on the cut edges, acid etched to bring up the diagnostic grain size (structure) of the specimen so at this point I am lucky enough to have someone from Ireland actually SELLING ME a $100 AG-3 St. Pat. farthing and another $100 for the late 17thC Charless II farthings. Yes - all coins are DESTROYED. Any you wish to donate? No joke ... but you see my point. This is why its a benchmark study. The latest insstruments and technology STILL require a central coin core analysis ... the true coin diagnostics of the time (late 17thC). This is standard procedure for this kind of microstructure coin study.
Now that you mention it I could just announce here that this study is also about determing the true alloy nature of the so-called brass splasher and how it was applied? This part of the analysis with these coins is NON-DESTRUCTIVE and of course this splasher JUST exist on the larger sized pieces. Anybody wishing to send me some pieces contact me privately. Will of course send back REGISTERED out of my own pocket.
So the brass splasher analysis is non-destructive (i.e., just the outside of the coin will be viewed). The other part the microstructure JUST on the ONE St. Pat farthing will be DESTRUCTIVE and the Charless II farthings of 1672-1675. My expense. Should we use more examples - sure - but too expensive. I also have my notes from 2005 when I initially did this study. Cut open St. Pat's ! <VVBG>. They were somewhat cheaper back then or when I originally bought them in 1998 ... <BG>.
Still want to donate some pieces for destruction ... its for Science. If not ... any St. Pats large sized pieces for brass splasher non-destructive alloy determinations?
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/26/2014 10:59 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
One of the country's leading medal enthusiast comments:
While I don't consider myself an expert on the series, just a brief Google brought up the original paper by Aquilla Smith, which mentions several early sources (Thoresby in 1715, and Jonathan Swift in 1724) referring to the large and small St. Patrick's coinage as halfpence and farthings. It is also interesting to note that an earlier source (Evelyn in 1697) talks about silver "medals" not coins, as does Thoresby. This distinction might explain the weight variability with the silver pieces. They also make mention of the coinage circulating during the reign of Charles II. Has anyone noted the resemblance of King David on this coinage to Charles I? Maybe the coinage was struck by someone in Ireland (or perhaps England) supportive of the restored Stuart monarchy to circulate in Ireland, hence the dual symbolism. Or could the coinage date back to the reign of Charles I, or struck in protest of the Commonwealth?
Edited by colonialjohn
03/27/2014 07:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
JPL: Interesting metallurgical post:
Guys,
I have never seen any silver pieces with any hint of a splash.
I'm not sure if liquid metal would adhere to the silver over the long term.
With the copper QVIESCAT PLEBS coins I have yet to see a truly embedded piece of brass/metal.
What I do see is liquid metal that sometimes was spread very thinly over the planchet and has had great adherence properties while other droplets are thicker and sometimes have contracted a bit to form a physical outline around the splash.
Then there are those that have a shallow crater like appearance with the detail of the strike still showing. My guess is that the brassy metal is no longer there.
Just a gut feeling -- the "gold" splash was in a higher metal -- yeah it wasn't gold, but it looked it. Would it almost be insulting a silver piece to have a brass splasher in it, since it would be an inferior metal to the coin? Obviously a real gold splasher would have been cool, but expensive to produce.
I'm not sure of what the metallurgical process would be, if brass would bind strongly to silver during striking or not as it did with copper. I haven't seen any evidence on any of the silver St Pat's that they even tried to make one with a splasher -- and I don't readily recall ANY coin from the era that was silver with any sort of splasher in it, so there might be some metallurgical reason why it doesn't happen.
JPL: I have never seen any CONFIRMATION what the yellow metal is in these splashers or the process that created these splashers - be DEFINED?
John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/27/2014 07:55 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Another viewpoint for today:
For instance John Lupia published the first of his two well researched articles on St. Pats in C4N Winter 2007. John found documentation dating back to February of 1674 that specifically mentions patricks. This document directly says that commmunicants in each parish were expected to give 4 patricks for each Mass attended. The document goes on to say that there were 80 Masses given each year. John then goes on to extrapolate that 100 communicants per 2,278 parishes nationally, translates to 911,200 St. Patrick halfpence collected for each Mass. Thus this amount of patricks times 80 was perhaps collected in 1674.
This is a lot of coppers.
Think about it, documentation of payment in "patricks" specifically in 1674. This is progress.
Fast forward to 1724 and Jonathon Swift , Dean of St. Patrick.
At this time Swift was on an unrelenting "all out written tirade" against the introduction of the Wood's coppers to Ireland.
Citing the "lies" about the lack of good copper in Ireland and thus the trumped up "need" for the Wood's coins he singles out "the great St. Patricks halfpenny" with still being in circulation while mentioning, almost in passing, "the small St. Patrick Coin which passeth now for a Farthing". It is my opinion that by his choice of words that he does not connect these two types of St. Patricks being minted together in time.
However, clearly 1674 to 1724 is at least 50 years of useful circulation.
JPL - Hard to believe these pieces had any communion token flavor to them with Catholics ... even Protestants ... the fabric ... is not a communicant token ... interesting they did circulate in and around Blondeau's time. Material Analysis of these pieces then to some Charles II farthings of 1672-1675. See what DOORS open up ...
Its either Vatican or Tower Mint on this merry-go-round ...
John Lorenzo
United States
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Posted 03/25/2014 1:41 pm
