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 Replies: 49 / Views: 15,958 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Mat, awerty (Terry Hiron) was one of the main salvors of the Association wreck and also involved in the Hollandia salvage - both of which went down off the Scilly Isles which he is based out of. I don't think he had any direct hand in the Rooswijk salvage but he certainly handles a decent amount of material from that wreck.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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No need to criticize my buying habits though. ... You mention the pieces are so "clearly dubious". Unfortunately it is clear to the trained experienced eye, but that is not the case for many of the rest. ... The knowledge sharing does help. The criticizing does not. See, the thing is, someone needs to tell it to you straight, b/c you're simply not buying intelligently. Are you worried more about your feelings or about knowing what you're doing? Also, I will say this... the key here is to do the legwork necessary to turn yourself into that "experienced eye"... Every new collector comes on here asking the same questions over and over and over again specifically regarding pillar and/or portrait 8R... There are literally DOZENS of threads specifically on pillar 8R in this forum's archives. Take the time and READ THROUGH THEM rather than wanting others to do your homework for you! Glean what you can from them... then look at as many confirmed genuine examples as you can (from the usual auction houses)... THEN come back to your questions armed with that knowledge... and THEN look into buying. If you'd rather not put the time into it... the best advice is to figure out which sources are going to offer no-doubt genuine material... then shop smart and wait for a good deal to come along. |
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Valued Member
 United States
55 Posts |
I read on some other threads, I believe from swamperbob, that an arch on the outside of the dentils not reaching the end of the metal could be an indications of counterfeiting, as the die used, copy from an existing coin, is not as large as an original and in this case not as large as the planchet itself. (Which makes a lit of sense). Would this 1745 8R currently on ebay be a good example of this?  In regards to the edge itself, what do you think of this one? original? close? unquestionable fake?  Looked at the pillar 8R's from "awerty" on ebay. Great pieces, both completed and currently listed. Looking at this type of examples significantly helps me get a much better idea of how real pieces look for this early pillar period (1730's), which I think I'm much more confident recognizing now. I think where I'm having still problems is in later years, where the coin contour wasn't as distinctive. For the coin above it seems from my learnings so far the edge was applied after the main striking as it seems distorted the far side of the dentils and later such distortion got eroded by wear. Am I correct? That seems original wear to me, what I dont know is if an edge applied afterwards is typical for a 1945 period or not. Here's a complete pic of the complete coin. Overall it looks fake to me at this point, but I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly the WHYs.  With so many fakes out there selling on ebay (or other online image sources, including plain google searches), I realize now looking at what is available there to get idea on the details of these coins and try to compare and discriminate what is real vs whats is not, is on not help much, Actually can cause more damage than not to the novice collector. With fakes being majority, is at first easily to get confused thinking those are real traits. |
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
By the way, the 1737 I purchased in one of the pictures shows the same red mat used for almost all of awerty auction pictures. Seems this coin could have been originally his, and then flipped by a US dealer whom I bought it from (probably at 1.5x - 2x his cost) argggg.....
Someone said in another forum I belong to (actually antique radios, very different stuff) that everyone is a novice once. Very true. I guess I'm going through that process now here, and learning my lessons.
While all of us were novices once, the good thing, at the same time, is that is only once :)
once you pass that stage, it becomes farther and farther away
Thanks for all the learnings so far !
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
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Take the time and READ THROUGH THEM rather than wanting others to do your homework for you! Very right, I support. There is a flooding of fake pillars 8 R coming like tsunami! Henry |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
That 1745 is fake indeed, and you did your homework properly here, by reading a particular topic with swamperbob involved.
You will find many highly valuable informations from him particularly, he tought me almost everything I know on those 8 reales :)
Denticles are here to avoid coins being shaved. Even if not centered, the denticles should not stop short like that : it's a clear sign of a copy (which was not centered on the copy like it used to be on the original).
Early 8 reales had longer / thinned denticles (as on the coin I posted), later ones are a bit fatter, but they don't stop like that (if the coin is not centered, they stop like elongated drops)
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
Mathiu, thanks for confirming my hipothesis and helping solidify my knowledge here.
Ive been doing a lot of homework lately. My mistake: A lot has been after my first purchases.
Lesson learned though, I'll be very cautious when buying moving forward
Who would had imagined that less than half the 8R out there for sale were real (and I'm probably being generous saying that)
I didnt, and that was probably the biggest mistake.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Well, I actually did a similar mistake when I started ... then I slowed down, and learned a lot ... :)
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
In your experience/ opinon, is the fake edge on top typical of any specific replicas (modern from China, etc.)? The bottom edge is from the 1737 BTW, which I assume is original. It looks good overall (to me), but with the edge I'm just able to find one overlap.  Would you be concerned with that edge as well? It looks very similar to me to the original examples posted (but maybe I'm still missing something) Thanks !  |
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
The 1770 8R piece, the last one bought, arrived today. Unfortunately, based on the edge design and how the edge and the dentils come together this one does look like a fake. again.
Coin diameter is 39.50mm and thickness is 2.30mm at the center to 2.50mm - 2.60mm on the slightly raised dentils portion (I do have a good vernier :) )
Even while fake, I wonder how does dimensions compare to orignals. Diamater looks larger. how about thickness? what's the usual there?
I understand originals had variations but assume within a given range only as at the end, total silver content (and thus volume) had to be maintained.
Are counterfeits typically thicker or larger (or both) so the added volume can potentially compensate for the lighter metal material (assuming debased Ag or other non Ag-alloy) to give a weight reading close to normal?
Will follow with some edge pics for everyone's reference
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Weight is always critical with a general 1.0 grams tolerance. Diameter and thickness not so critical. Also its good to understand the sound of silver in a coin ring test (higher pitch as compared to german silver - as an example).
Let me have the E-Bay seller that sold you that silver wash fake. Please post or send privately.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
FYI a sedwick auction is currently in progress. I'm toying with the idea of driving over to Rosemont tomorrow to see it live...and visit the rest of the coin show of course...
Oops just a booth, auction is in May...
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
04/10/2014 07:47 am
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
Here's a pic of the 1770 coin edge (compared to a 1737 assumed authentic). Clearly a fake unfortunately. As can been seen, also the coin dimater is larger than expected (39.5mm vs 38mm nominal). While some variation could be expected in coin dimensions, a relationship between diameter and thickness HAS to be maintained, as this dictates volume, and volume evidently translates into silver contents. In this case, I suspect dimensions were increased to add some extra volume (and thus weight) to the coin and this way compensate for a lower density alloy used.   |
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
This is my new baby. Very proud of it :) With the knowledge gained during this past few weeks I think I have made a much better purchase. Thank you all for your prior comments  Been tracking coins for sale at more reputable auction houses too. Much more evident now how much junk is sold on ebay (not to mention the extremely high proportion of fakes) and mostly over priced ! |
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts |
ColonialJohn -
The system is not allowing me to email you directly since it says I'm a new member. Dont think I'm ignoring your request. I'm still working on that coin with the seller. For the other two, I have succesfully negotiated the return. :)
Best regards
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Posted 04/03/2014 4:54 pm
