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 Replies: 85 / Views: 13,120 |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5395 Posts |
Indeed a red herring! Based on recent hands on observations and attendance at numerous recent US coin shows , I am willing to bet many ( but not all) will be red in PCGS holders. My advice to any who buy Canadian coins in PCGS ( not just any potential LANDON) holders be careful! The US TPG grading of Canadian coins is shall we say questionable. That said PCGS and their definition of red is very very strict. The definition of what is and what is not a Canadian PL coin is a totally different scenario. Remember when you go to price all of this stuff TRENDS clearly states their pricing formula is based on ICCS graded coins . US graded TPG COINS ARE NOT based on CCN trends. If you want a better indication OR COMPARISON try using Mike Findlay s PINK sheet for a price comparison. It shows that PCGS coins are often priced less than ICCS comparables. I recently submitted a bunch of previously graded Canadian Dollars in ICCS holders to a Major US TPG at the Portland ANA and will be intrigued to see what they come back. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
972 Posts |
If there is a "red herring" between the two grading companies it may be the grades given and the different use of the Sheldon scale of the two companies. I see this as more of a issue when referring PCGS grading of Canadian coins than I see "red" designations. PCGS is the benchmark grading company for US coins and is the standard for US collectors and coin dealers. Just as ICCS is the benchmark grading company for Canadian coins and the standard for Canadian collectors and coin dealers. Both companies are excellent grading companies but use the Sheldon scale different. Selling US coins need to be PCGS graded to achieve top value in the US market and the same holds true with ICCS graded coins in the Canadian market. A good example of there different use of the Sheldon scale was the grading of the recent 2012 BOC gold coin release. I can only count on one hand the number of ICCS graded MS64 Canadian gold coins I have ever seen and have only ever seen 1 MS65. But have seen many Canadian gold coins PCGS graded MS64,64+,65,65+,66, and even 66+. Any Landon Large cents that end up being sent to PCGS for a cross grade who knows what grade they will get as they use the scale different than ICCS. This is why as I previously said the Landon sale was all ICCS graded because it was primarily a Canadian buyer market. Had nothing to do with ICCS being more affordable or could meet a fast turn around. If the hoard had been early US cents they all would have been PCGS graded. It the perfect world it would be great if all grading companies used the Sheldon scale exactly the same. Edited by wireman09
03/24/2015 09:11 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
wireman09...couldn't have said it better myself. Bottom line...for US coins use PCGS, for Canadian coins use ICCS. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1352 Posts |
The key is understanding how each TPG grades your preferred series. In my case, the series is Victorian cents. My thought on looking at the ICCS grading of the Landon cents was that PCGS would grade the vast majority of them one numerical grade lower. Also, many of the ICCS reds, would be RB at PCGS. This also varies by series, as Wireman has suggested. I can say with some certainty that, over the past five years, PCGS has been much tougher than ICCS on mint state Victorian copper. Other series, not so much. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
PCGS is definitely tougher on nickel dollars than ICCS. While ICCS likes clean fields, PCGS is hard on weak strikes and marks on the effigy...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Valued Member
Canada
495 Posts |
I was thinking of sending coins to PCGS for potential upgrade but starting to wonder if its worth it; so what if I get a decent bump up from them if a potential Canadian buyer downgrades it because ICCS might. I guess all of the Can coins I have in PCGS and NGC slabs are not worth the money I purchased them for..
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5395 Posts |
You have it mostly right Macdon . Use all that money you were going to give to the U.S. TPG s and treat yourself to some nice carefully selected ICCS graded pieces. Another strategy for copper rather than leaving the super choice ones in ICCS holders is to get them into CCCS hard holders as a cross grade. Of all the recent US TPG grading and results that I have seen ( many) it may come as a surprise but ANACS appears more conservative than either of NGC or PCGS lately. Speaking to more than a few dealers at both the Portland ANA and at the just completed Las Vegas show they concur. I was offered an AU-53 1870 LCW half PCGS half in their so called Secure Holder that was maybe EF 40 ICCS or CCCS. The whole grading scenario is quite amusing really. My advice buy nice coins with excellent eye appeal at your price, irregardless of whose opinion or type of plastic. When you master that task your coins will be easily sold when the time comes. Buy the coin not the holder. |
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Pillar of the Community
Taiwan
606 Posts |
bosox nailed it again as usual. Know your series and the nuances
of PCGS and ICCS. My area of interest is George VI silver. ICCS
is more critical on the fields where PCGS places more emphasis
on the portrait. I like the PCGS approach. I am speaking of ms 65
and up material.
I have seen a few ICCS George VI halves that were downgraded to
64's by PCGS. That is a pretty good hit if you paid ICCS 65 money.
Again they had nice fields but the portraits were too busy for PCGS.
Just because the coin is in an ICCS flip do not assume that it will
cross or grade higher at PCGS.
I recently submitted four ICCS 65 George VI 10c pcs to PCGS.(41,44,
45,47) They were all in early ICCS flips. All crossed at grade. Your
mileage may vary.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
972 Posts |
bosox & SPP...I do have to agree. Differences in Canadian coins graded by the two companies varies more with certain series than others. Nobody would know this better than you bosox when it comes to the Canadian large cents. I also prefer higher grade Canadian coins and have found most of them end up in holders by one of those two companies. Because sometimes there is differences in the two company's grading, it makes it more necessary than ever to see the coin before before making purchases.
Edited by wireman09
03/24/2015 11:57 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1352 Posts |
One of the other things to consider is when the coin was graded. In very general terms, early ICCS grading of mint state Victorian copper was tougher than PCGS. This flip flopped with a vengeance in about 2010.
Also take into account that PCGS will now re-holder an older graded coin into a newer PCGS secure holder without re-grading it. They merely transfer the original grade to the new holder. You can usually tell this by the cert number, since they do not change it either.
Know how to grade your series yourself and buy the coin, not the holder.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Valued Member
Canada
495 Posts |
@Pacificoin I think you and others are right about the " buy the coin and not the holder" Ive been resistant to that idea but I "see" what you mean, Landon collection kinda gave me a wakeup call to what truly is meant by eye appeal and I feel enlightened I truly do... I think I was getting sidetracked and forgetting why I like the hobby.
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
@ bosox... Quote:
This flip flopped with a vengeance in about 2010. I think PCGS decided that ICCS was getting too much business with Canadian coins and said, we'll make higher grades and they will send their coins to us...it's called business. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
After buying hundreds of coins of all TPGs, my experience with Canadian Victorian material is this: PCGS and ICCS generally agree up to VF20. PCGS is a little weak in the VF30-AU53 range. ICCS on the other hand, is extremely inconsistent in the VF20-EF40 range. I've had ICCS VF20 coins look solid EF and cross-grade to PCGS EF40. I've also had ICCS EF40 coins that looked no better than VF20. By far the worst thing about ICCS is dealers hiding cleaned/retoned/hairlined/damaged coins in ICCS flips that would never pass PCGS. To me, ICCS is not a respectable TPG company. If you grade and encapsulate damaged coins with no label to designate them as such, coins that would not pass ANY other TPG in the world (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG), then you cannot call yourself a respectable TPG. I have far more respect and trust for ICG than ICCS. And ICCS is CERTAINLY not the "standard" of Canadian coin grading, as someone said earlier. Any Canadian collection of any worth, will never find itself housed in ICCS flips (Pittman, Belzberg, Norweb, etc). The thousands of damaged coins that ICCS has turned a blind eye to, has damaged its reputation forever, certainly in the global marketplace. With the Landon collection, I would not dare to buy ANY Landon coin unless closely examined in hand. Edited by canadian-varieties
03/24/2015 5:38 pm
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
Quote:Quote:
This flip flopped with a vengeance in about 2010. I think PCGS decided that ICCS was getting too much business with Canadian coins and said, we'll make higher grades and they will send their coins to us...it's called business. Actually - PCGS got tougher, and harder on bronze coins, especially with colour and "questionable colour" coins. In 2010, ICCS suddenly started grading MS-65, MS-66 and MS-67 coins with much higher frequency. The proof is simple, try finding coins inside older ICCS flips with the embossed certificate... they still exist, but many, many have been snipped out, and resubmitted back to ICCS, and returned with higher grades... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
541 Posts |
this has been a very informative discussion regarding the Landon Collection and more recently the grading by TPGs of Canadian material...The fact that ICCS was chosen to grade the Landon coins and, in particular to our discussion, the Large cent MS collection states the obvious that ICCS is a highly respected firm amongst the Canadian Numismatic Industry....Personally I find sending any coins to a PG agency a gamble and have been dissapointed by all of them at some time or another...I have examined quite a few Landon Large cents in the MS64 and 65 range and dont agree with ICCS on a few of them but I have confidence that ICCS has a bigger picture than I do...All these companies see the bigger picture in the vast ammount of material pouring into their hands for grading ...and we demand they give us a verdict and a protective vehicle for our rare coins.....Business is a product of demand and I will be curious to see if many of the Landon ICCS graded coins will be sent for cross grading to the USA or other Canada TPGs and how they will be labelled and treated.....
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Posted 03/24/2015 08:32 am
