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A Question On Japanese Silver Coins In Mutsuhito's Reign

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Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2015  1:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bungle to your friends list
1897 was when Japan switched to the gold standard.
You can see the change more clearly if you look at the gold coins.
Before 1897: Dragon on obverse
After 1897: Radiant sun on obverse (no dragon)

See the bottom of page 38 (page 5 in the pdf) of this, published by a branch of the Japanese government:
http://dl.ndl.go.jp/view/download/d...ternativeNo=

It basically says that after the first Sino-Japanese war, public opinion was that the dragon was unfit to be used as a symbol of the emperor.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  01:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list
Very interesting history bungle. I learned something new. Many thanks!

I must ask this - while the Japanese gold and copper coins were switched from the dragon design to the rising sun in 1897, why did it take much longer for the silver coins to follow suit?

Second question - If you look at the coinage of Korean Empire while Korea was under Japanese rule, there were gold coins struck with the dragon design until 1909 and silver coins until 1910. Nickel copper and copper coins were struck with the flying phoenix (?) design. If this was a case of removing Chinese elements from coin design, wouldn't this have been affected as well? After all, all Korean coins during this time were struck in Osaka mint.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  07:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bungle to your friends list
Korea still had an emperor until 1910.

I think it is like asking why it took so long for the US to remove the fasces from its dime.
It was probably not enough of a problem to warrant a design change without any changes in the weight/size of the coins.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11951 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  08:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list
Very interesting thread, thank you all for posting.

I recently added a type set for Japanese coins
to my collection. Information like this really
helps me in my quest.
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
gxseries:

Quote:
while the Japanese gold and copper coins were switched from the dragon design to the rising sun in 1897, why did it take much longer for the silver coins to follow suit?

I think they could use paper notes in their country but the silver dollars are struck for foreign trade. This also explains why the dragon remained on the side of silver dollars than on the lower denomination coins. Businessmen like to use the currency they are familiar.

Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  09:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Bungle:

Quote:
The reason why the dragon went away is most likely Sinophobia after the first Sino-Japanese war.


To me, I would say the Emperor of Japan did not want to share any similarity to the loser of the War rather than Sinophobia.


Quote:
All 1 yen coins minted since 1901 were not circulated in Japan.

Bungle, can you elaborate more about this point? Why is the cutting line is 1901?
Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bungle to your friends list

Quote:
Quote: All 1 yen coins minted since 1901 were not circulated in Japan.

Bungle, can you elaborate more about this point? Why is the cutting line is 1901?

Production of 1 yen coins was stopped in 1897.
The existing coins were counterstamped with the character for silver.

In 1899 the Bank of Taiwan issued notes that were redeemable for Japanese silver coins.

These notes are very rare now. Perhaps one reason is because most of them were redeemed.
Probably so many were being redeemed that they ran out of the counterstamped coins, and had to resume production in 1901.

I do not know much about this subject, but apparently Taiwan moved to the gold standard in 1908, and import of silver was banned! This appears to be reflected in the low mintage of 1908 1 yen coins.
However, for reasons unknown to me, once again coins were minted in 1912 and 1914 with very high mintages.
Pillar of the Community
United States
807 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2015  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add publius to your friends list
The silver yen was demonetized in 1897 and a very large number of pieces melted.
This measure, however, resulted in the existence of no coins between the silver 50 sen and the gold 5 yen. As a result, the silver yen was revived pretty soon afterwards, being used as collateral for an issue of 1-yen silver convertible notes by the Bank of Japan, similar to the silver certificates of the United States. These notes are interesting in part because they bear fine-line engravings duplicating the denomination side of the coin, on both face and back.

The Hong Kong mint machinery, although bought by the Japanese, was found unsatisfactory. If you read the reports on the subject, the Osaka Mint was actually fitted out with machinery brought directly from Europe.
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2015  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Bungle, thank you so much for your input, I learn a lot from your comments.
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2015  09:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Publis, also thank you for your information.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2015  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list
bungle - there was a change in Korean coin size in 1907. At this point of time, Korea was essentially a Japanese puppet state after the Japan-Korea treaty in 1905. I don't see how Emperor Yunghui had much say after Emperor Gwangmu was forced to abdicate by the Japanese.

If the argument was to remove any Chinese related elements in 1897, this does not make any sense at all. The first coins struck for Korea in Osaka mint was in 1905. I still do not see any relationship with the so called "sinophobia".

publius - I do not understand this line:

" This measure, however, resulted in the existence of no coins between the silver 50 sen and the gold 5 yen. "

When looking at mintage figures, there does seem to be coins struck sporadically after 1897. If this is about silver yen coins not struck in between 1897 - 1901, I believe the mint was busy recalling circulated 1 yen coins to be counterstamped. When the source dried out, that was when new batch of coins were struck.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2015  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bungle to your friends list
The dragon on Japanese coins was supposed to represent the emperor because they didn't want his portrait on a coin.

There are several possible reasons why the same dragon is on Korean coins 1905-1910
I don't know how you would find out the real reasons...
1. Outside of Japan one yen coins were still being circulated and so the design would be recognizable.
2. Korean coins from the previous decade had dragons on them.
3. They didn't want to spend money or time making new designs.
4. It would be awkward to introduce a new design in 1906 or 1907 so soon after introducing the new coins.
5. It was not politically correct to have the sun (as on the Japanese coins of 1906-1907) on a foreign coin.
6. To associate the Korean emperor with the losers, or the end of an era.
7. They were going to annex Korea soon and get rid of the hard currency anyway, replacing it with paper yen.
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2015  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Is it true to say that after Japan had changed to Gold system, paper notes became more and more predominate in Taiwan and Korea (esp. when Korea is fully controlled after 1910), silver coins and bank notes were used in Japan and leaving silver yen (dollar) as a trading tool with China.

After the Sino-Japanese War, the role of the Government and Subject of the country heightened to a level that the Emperor became the figure-head of the country. Under this scenario, rising sun (representing the country) rather than a dragon became the emblem on the coins.

Bungle, do you agree?
Valued Member
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bungle to your friends list
I can't really agree with that.
Actually, officially the rising sun side is the reverse of the coin, not the obverse.

Quote from Japan Mint publication:
*Japanese doesn't show up, it is on page 56 here:
http://www.mint.go.jp/wp-content/up...02/ayumi.pdf

*translation:
It is said that the reason why the dragon was removed,
was because after winning the first Sino-Japanese war,
people were saying "Having a dragon represent the head of state is a Qing-Chinese idea that should be rejected from the currency."


Also the Qing dynasty had to pay a huge sum of war reparations in gold sovereigns. St. George may have played a role.
Edited by bungle
05/08/2015 09:38 am
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2015  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Thank you Bungle, I can read part of it as there are some Chinese characters.
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