A Cob - Counterfeit - Forgery Or What?

The seller is located in the US and is a dealer who hunts for forgeries. He travels around to a lot of shows that I can not attend because of my wife's illness and my own physical issues. On a coin like this I provide an estimate of my interest then he shops the coin around looking for other bidders. When I show most interest (highest price) I win. Works fine for me. I can usually outbid most collectors except Mike Dunigan and collectors at that level.

On the frontier of the 1850s which was almost anyplace west of the Mississippi - I believe really old silver (even cob coins) would have been welcomed because small change (silver) was particularly hard to get.

thq This one proves that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Bob, just asked to see about where it came from to see if that might narrow its origins down.

Figuring how the host dime is in theory barely below the face value of a cob 1R (and in practice, I believe I've read that old, worn-down 1R only traded at 10 or 11 cents in the U.S. by this time), I guess one of two things here:

1) (and your language alludes to this) If originating in the States, this strike on a dime would simply be a test strike and not meant to be the standard procedure (virtually no margin over the dime face value).

OR

2) Perhaps this originated from somewhere in Central America, where American small change sometimes made its way to in the mid-1800s... Maybe if they weren't universally accepted as "legal tender" or similar, someone endeavored to overstrike them with a Spanish design?

Either way, interesting that they would use such an old design (not only cob, but the even older shield design)... guess they figured perhaps it would be vaguely recognized enough to be accepted, but no one would know enough to question legitimacy.

When I get a chance, I'll peek at pics of contemp. counterfeit and/or older fake cobs I've come across (sometimes they're hard to tell apart) to see if there are any potential relatives...

That is one of the most interesting pieces I have seen in a long time...

All forgers test their dies. Using a convenient coin just makes the test easier once the die pair is mounted in a press.

Very few survive compared to single sided splashers.

Fred Weinberg chimed in on this piece on another channel. It floated around the last Long Beach show however he told me he really does not involve himself with non-Federal errors ... however on this one with the host coin is a Federal dime.

On a separate matter Julia Purdy recently has shown and found newspaper articles that Mexican tokens were forged in Pittsburgh, PA, New York and of course Belleville, NJ which may be the best source yet for Canadian Blacksmiths. She has found several 19thC newspaper clippings. Trying to convince her to send to MNA Journal. Maybe Joe Flores can add ... ? Paper ads say forged Mexican Tokens for sale and the like ... contact this company. The Belleville paper article was a counterfeiting ring getting caught in a port in South America with tons of forged blanks ready for striking like that well known 1833 S.A. Forgery from Honduras in my collection and in my new book on Foreign Counterfeits ...

JPL

I too would like to know Wienburg's take on the coin or comments.

I would also love to see the references to counterfeit coins taken from any original source documents.

These need to be broadcast so everyone knows what they say. Too many of these documents sit hidden away in private collections for decades between sales and the valuable information they contain is not utilized.

That is interesting that he passed on the coin but fortunate for me. It falls in the same general class of re-purposing such as using a Large cent for a clock gear or a washer. It is a re-use of a Federalist coin albeit for nefarious purposes.

It is now in my possession and I love it. I think it did in fact circulate after being re-stamped - there is significant wear on the 1R design. The host was a rather high grade coin so it had not circulated long before it was re-struck.

I have researched coin wear rates and studies are all over the place. The article with the shortes length of life indicated that a silver dime dropped from MS to F12 in just over a year! More conservative estimate run to as long as 10 years. So even using the very conservative figure of 10
years that would date the restrike at 1855 at the very latest. So for whatever reason, someone was testing dies for a 1 reale in the period of time just before they ceased being legal tender in the US (1857).

Does anyone who collects cobs know when the first reports of systematic collection began? Could collectors have shown enough interest in this series by 1855 to warrant a forger making these dies for the purposes of Numismatic forgery?