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Questions On Rare Variety Type Coins And Losing Value?

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 Posted 09/11/2017  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JFH to your friends list
I may be the odd one here, but if my rare coins lose value, they will at some point in time bounce back, a gamble in life like everything is. Do I collect for a later return, no, I collect for the rush that I get chasing the coin(s) that I really want. After the purchase, I do lose that "high" to some degree, as the challenge and reward has been achieved. After 50+ years of collecting, I still have the drive to collect without thinking about the what if's in life.

JFH
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 Posted 09/11/2017  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list
Without knowing what coins and variety you are talking about, I can make some very general assumptions:

1. We really should not assume that the PCGS totals bear any resemblance to the total coin population. To paraphrase Hamlet "There are more coins out there in heaven and earth than are dreamt of by the PCGS grading service". Since you alone found 10 more, it is obvious there could be 1000s more out there in the "wild".
2. Yes, as a general rule, if too many coins of the same kind appear on the market, the price will likely drop. This is fairly elementary supply and demand economics. The demand for varieties of any particular coins is much lower than the general demand for that coin.
Edited by oriole
09/11/2017 8:53 pm
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 Posted 09/11/2017  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list
I don't want to be specific because I am looking for a general rule of thumb here. There are many rare varieties that I have been collecting and I used the type above as a guide or starting point. Other rarities I am interested in are ones that any collector of a coin would be interested no matter the grade or major or minor variety.
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 Posted 09/11/2017  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list
We have to know the type of coin, bro. If you don't want to reveal the type b/c you think CCF members are suddenly going to change their collecting habits and rush to snatch up every available example then you are sadly mistaken. Without the info we can't help you. Also I don't know what your budget is but trying to corner the market on a $2,000 coin versus a $200 coin are two different beasts.

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 Posted 09/11/2017  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list

Quote:
I don't want to be specific because I am looking for a general rule of thumb here.


Ah, I didn't see this. There is no general rule of thumb. Coin types fall in and out of favor. It also depends on grade. Lower grades, and higher grades attract different kinds of collectors. The lower grades will attract less advanced collectors.
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 Posted 09/11/2017  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list
It have to be the Seated Type, your icon says it all.
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 Posted 09/11/2017  10:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list
In general, if you buy a coin it could go up in value or it could go down in value at any time. Generally speaking as a rule of thumb.
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 Posted 09/11/2017  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chesterb to your friends list
I have an 1829 Bust dime that PCGS states only 25 exists. It's worth the same as the other 1829 varieties. I guess there aren't many collecting those types by variety so YMMV depending on coin and series.
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 Posted 09/11/2017  11:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list
Numismaticstudent, I was looking for a more intelligent response from serious coin collectors instead of something learned in kindergarten. The question is more in line with how does a flood of a specific type of coin affect it's value? I would have preferred no comment.
Macmecury, you might be right but is it the Half Dime, dime, double dime, quarter, half dollar or dollar? Or is it a commemorative, modern commemorative, Morgan, peace, slq's, Buffalo nickel, draped bust cent, coronet head cent, Flying Eagle cent, ihp or capped bust in any denomination? I do not discriminate to the type of coin (I do prefer silver over gold though and the seated series are the first type I ever started collecting, hence my image).
Mikef, thank you for an honest response and I am not worried about people finding out what coins I collect. My questions are more general and are for any rare variety type.
Oriole, thank you and you are right, just because it is posted on PCGS doesn't mean it is correct or accurate.
This is one of the reasons I started this conversation, trying to understand and learn.

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 Posted 09/11/2017  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list
Got it.
In the seated series, eye appeal is more important that rare varieties. I'm assuming you're collection is vf or lower by looking through your posting history.

The reason you're able to find rare varieties is b/c of lack of demand. Small lowgrade coins don't have a lot of demand. Most collectors prefer big coins and that leads to less dedicated small denomination collectors.

I suspect this phenomenon is only exasperated in lower grade coins. If I can buy an r-5 Seated dime in vf for $100 dollars but have another option of buying a r-1 dime with superior eye appeal, why would I buy the rarer coin that is hard on the eyes? Especially if I knew varieties don't effect the price. I would take the r-1 with superior eye appeal over the r-5 anyday.
Edited by MikeF
09/11/2017 11:47 pm
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 Posted 09/12/2017  12:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list
My opinion: only a relative few varieties have large premiums over the non-variety "normal" coin. Popular Morgan VAMs come to mind, like the1888-O Hot Lips and 1890-CC Tailbar. Then there is the 1955 Doubled Die cent and most of the rare Sheldon large cent varieties. Popularity is the key to market value differences. Unless there is a big surge in the number of variety collectors I'd expect most varieties in the Seated Liberty series are unlikely to build big premiums.

I'm OK with being wrong though. Maybe my 1876-CC half with micro mintmark is about to take off in value!
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 Posted 09/12/2017  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
I wold think the appropriate answer more complex than can be decribed by a "generality," but not in an issue-specific sense. A major factor in deriving an answer is the perception of rarity, and people do not change their perceptions easily, even in the face of hard evidence. If you add (throwing out a number) 20% to the population of a rarity, one would expect a commensurate drop in the premium offered for that rarity, especially when it's being balanced (via your cherrypicking) by an equal drop in the population of the more common variety.

But people don't always change their minds easily. Case in point: There is never a moment in numismatics when you cannot go out and buy a 1909-S VDB Lincoln in any grade you want, except at the very top of the Condition Census. It is the perception of them as a rare and valuable coin which helps to prop their value up. The S-VDB has the second-highest Population in PCGS slabs of any Lincoln, lagging only the 1909 VDB. Their mintage is low, but their availability is not and that data may be found by anyone who cares to look for it

Additionally, some collectors simply will_not change their minds even in the face of new evidence. Yes, your large addition to the population of the rare variety will alter the value, but not everyone is going to get on that bandwagon, so prices (on average) will not fall as proportionally as they should.

Demand is another factor. Lessened rarity will mean fewer non-specialists who seek that coin as a "type" simply for its' rarity. This may affect pricing in a downward direction, or it may not, depending on demand. A more-collected series - like Morgans - can absorb a larger hit than could 3 Cent Nickels, for instance.

If there is a generality, it is in that the closer you get to satisfying the actual collector demand for the coin - not the dealer demand - the faster the price will drop. But I don't feel any hard numbers could be speculated upon.
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 Posted 09/12/2017  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list
It depends how big the market is for the rare variety. 50 years ago when Bust Dollars were a fraction of their current cost, there were large premiums attached to R-5 and rarer varieties as there was interest in completing sets by Bolender number. Now that they are $2K and up in VF, there is no one collecting Bust Dollars by die variety anymore and you can buy R-6 coins with no premium. There are R-7 US Patterns whose price has not budged in 10 years. The 4 coins that are around show up at auction periodically and sell at the same price as they did 10 years ago. Again, nobody collects US Patterns anymore. Currently, there is an active market for Capped Bust Halves by die variety. If prices go up by a lot, the premiums on rare die varieties will likely contract as the possibility of a complete set by Overton number diminishes.

If you were to dump 50 of a rare Overton number halves on the market at the same time, they might not all bring top dollar, but they wouldn't go for nothing either. There is a lot of buying power among dealers that know that eventually these coins will get absorbed and they will make a profit when there is no longer such an overhang.

Whatever you are looking at buying, if you find that you can buy a lot of them much cheaper that their rarity would suggest, it is likely that no one cares and you will not be able to sell them at a profit. The opposite effect can be seen with "popular" coins like the 1909-S VDB cent, the 1916 Standing Liberty quarter, or the High Relief Saint. They are much more expensive than their true rarity would suggest due to popularity.
Edited by Andrew99
09/12/2017 09:18 am
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 Posted 09/12/2017  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list
I don't think you will find a better case study than the Saddle Ridge hoard. Do some research on auction prices before the discovery, during the announcement, and after the sale. It's just one small slice of numismatics of course, but I think that is what you are looking for. Several very expensive pieces lost their status as "finest known" as a result of that hoard.

Numismatic rarities are luxury items, and there are too many factors to consider to give a blanket statement. I could show you half a dozen R3-R5 (less than 100 to unique) ancients that I picked up for peanuts because the market is nonexistent.
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 Posted 09/12/2017  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list
I have a goodly number of R-10, unique only known - with followed pedigrees - in a small exonumic field.

They would mostly sell in the $400-600 price range. If 10 were suddenly discovered of a single type, the value might drop $100 because there are still more than 10 buyers. It would usually take about 7-10 years for the price to recover to the full previous $400-600.

Although supply and demand does affect prices, in addition to many other factors, the buyer's ability to purchase is at least as important.

In other words, if 10 1804 Draped Bust Dollars suddenly became available, and the prices dropped to $500,000 each, that price would still prohibit the vast majority of collectors from making such a purchase.

Yes, the immediate price would drop, but there are more than 10 buyers who would love such a purchase at half a mil. So what the item is, is greatly influenced by the dollar value, too.

As has already been stated, a $200 value as compared to a $2000 coin would greatly reduce potential buyers.

Specific coins, as has been asked for, is still needed to even give you a general rule.

Essentially, what you are asking is how much is a car worth and how much will the price change with an influx of more of the same car. We don't know the make, model, year, mileage, or condition of the cars you have in mind.

Even general rules are pretty tough without basic specifics.
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