1934/1935 Melbourne Centenary Florin

BEWARE !
A coin dealer friend of mine with over 50 years' experience, showed me a really nice Centenary Florin and asked me to comment on it.
He said:
"Have a REALLY close look at it, with this 10X loupe"

After some time, I said
'Nice coin'
-"Have another look"
-'Looks fine to me'
-"Sorry, it's a dud"

He then pointed out why, in detail, that it was a fake.

After the education, the only thing that was a bit more obvious, was that the patina didn't look quite right to me.
He pointed out about six other tiny inconsistencies, that I was unaware of, with Centenary Florins.

That fake joined many others in the dealer's reference collection of fake coins.

To the rest us: Don't get too worried;
it is the only exceptionally deceiving fake Centenary Florin I have seen, but there are probably a few others out there.

I'm currently building up a decent reference collection of Centenary florins and '37-38 Crowns trying to spot every die pair and their markers (mostly die polish lines). With this collection I can identify the genuine from the high grade fakes......but what happens in 10-20 years with the advances in technology, will micro examination of coins spot the super perfect fakes or will the fakes be impossible to spot from the genuine if their tools include the ability to perfectly copy every die polish line?
Any chance Sel that the dealer was wrong? There are die pairs recently identified with only a few known examples and their patina may be different because the die was prepared differently such that the patina on a chromed die is different to that on a normal die, plus the blanks for some coins are different giving a different patina.

Sel, considering the latest research on the Centenary was only published this year then that dealer would not have known of the various new die pairing findings. I can't believe that a fake could be that good 3 years ago and not have flooded the market with more examples. 6 tiny inconsistencies might just be 6 tiny differences between genuine die pairs.
Matthew sent me XRF analysis results yesterday for about 8 different die pairs. Although the way I see it if you wanted to create perfect fakes of pre decimal silver then just get a bag of junk grade pre decimals and melt them to make new blanks with the same alloy mix.

nealeffendi and sel_691

Thanks to both you for your dedication in your pursuit of " scientifically " accurate, reliable knowledge and, especially, for sharing that knowledge with us all.

sel_691 thanks for your lead :- it appears as though the IBSCC bulletin on counterfeits ceased Dec 2006 and had a bit of a hiatus, then revived , before being incorporated into forgerynetwork.com.

I can't yet determine how up to date it might be, but nonetheless, there's some interesting reading there.

sel_691, your last post....Using modern 90% or 22ct melted coins...... your detailed and precise post is really 100% brilliant. Are you a metallurgical scientist?

It appears that there isn't any up to date dedicated forum available specifically for counterfeit Australian pre - decimal coins. My. and probably many others, point of view is : is it now not time something that is verging on essential be done, as a result of the growing influx of counterfeit florins, crowns, etc, and use this forum as a conduit for people - potential buyers - to be able to submit ebay item numbers of their intended purchase(s) to be evaluated for authenticity ?

I think that there is only one way to combat this growing counterfeit scurge and to stop, or at least put a severe dent in, the " couldn't care less, we only want the fees " ebay listings- us, together.

Is this a worth while concept to start on this ACC forum under its own separate unique section ?

Reputable ebay sellers might consider mentioning this ACC forum's counterfeit section somewhere in the desciption section of their listings to make buyers AWARE that such a forum exists.

I can't think of any better way, to at least try, to ensure that the counterfeiters are weeded out.

Australians versus the counterfeiters.

Your thougths, please.

I had in mind a stand alone Counterfeits/Fakes ACC Forum subtitle, instead of Counterfeits/Fakes all being grouped in together within the Australian Variety, Error Coins, Banknotes and Paper Money forum.

It can take a lot of reading within that Forum's many, many other ( generally interesting and informative ) posts to find the posts directly relating to Counterfeits/Fakes.

This thought/suggestion might be a bit of a long shot to implement, but I believe an effort should/could be made for the benefit of ALL Australian collectors to, at least, have an opportunity to not have to second guess, and hope like hell, that any Australian pre - decimal coin(s) they are intending to buy is 100% Pure. If these potential buyers of pre - decimal Autralian coin(s) can be made aware that Australia has an up to date forum which they can readily use as a 100% accurate reference point BEFORE they make their purchase(s).

There are many wise, highly experienced and very reliable people posting to this forum.

Can we consider this proposal ? Why shouldn't we, Australians, do something about the Counterfeiters?

Ok, so we know only too well what has been going on with Counterfeit and Fake (C/F) pre-decimal coins on ebay for years. I have very nice replicas of 1925,1937 and 1954 pennies, along with a few replica 1930 pennies which I bought on ebay being fully aware as to what I was doing. Great novelty items, that's all they are.

However, can we, or should we, rely on the Police to oversee the 1000's of dodgy, C/F forged coins being openly sold on, with the clear, almost encouraged, knowledge, of ebay?

I'd like to, again, suggest a separate section, as highlighted in my earlier post, within ACC's forum exclusively only for Counterfeit and Fake pre-decimal coins.

There can't be anything more satisfying then to immediately post the ID of any seller of C/F pre-decimal coins, and then emailing the seller through ebay and " inviting " him/her to have a read of the ACC forum's section of Counterfeit and Fake pre-decimal coins.

The coin(s) in question could be verified as being C/F by 3 forum members before any action can be taken.
When we have numerous dodgy sellers' ID's - which wouldn't take too long - we could notify the Queensland online fraud squad and invite them to read the ACC's C/F pre-decimal coin forum. Then notify ebay, and highlight what we have been able to accumulate in the way of dodgy sellers' ID's, along with all the item numbers, and invite them, too, to read the ACC's C/F forum, pointing out to them that we have notified the Police. ebay will be forced to act on the dodgy sellers.

I maintain that it is virtually up to us Australians, to start eradicating the growing scurge of C/F pre-decimal coins being sold, and allowed to be sold, on the deafened ebay.

I think our combined efforts, along with constantly notifying ebay in full detail of each newly found dodgy sellers will force ebay to act on our behalf. I'm even willing to go as far as deliberately buying some of the C/F coins and not paying for them.... An opportunity to leave well worded negative feedback(s)

Your thoughts, please.