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Barborous Ancient Romans

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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2019  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list
I actively collect the eastern denarii of Septimius Severus and rarely see imitatives. They generally interest me when I do see them.

The following is a genuine COS II, VICTOR SEVER AVG

Barborous-Ancient-Romans

and am imitative of the same type

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and some years later I found an obverse die match to this imitative with garbled reverse legend "IOVL SEN ? AVG"

Barborous-Ancient-Romans
Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2019  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list
Barbarous radiates are fun, but I agree they can never be "collected" in the sense that other coins can, simply because 99% of them are unique one-offs, and many are simply too degenerate to even tell what they're supposed to be.

Personally, I accumulate all the ones I come across in lots, although I don't specifically seek them out unless they are something truly special. Some of my favorite examples of something "truly special":

- Types with a unique reverse - I'd love to see the celtic horse reverses Ben is referring to! CNG sold a lot with unique reverse types several years ago, long before I even collected ancients:
https://www.cNGCoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=94518

- Types that are in exceptionally good style, possibly by a former mint worker

- Types that aren't just Tetricus I/II, Divo Claudio, or common 4th century type (VLPP, FTR etc)

- Types that are extraordinarily small or degenerate

Some of my favorites that I've picked up over the years:

I theorize this one might be a stab at a Gallienus Zoo type?
Barborous-Ancient-Romans

A decent attempt at a Gallienus, with an indecipherable reverse
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A mostly literate Victorinus with a portrait that looks nothing like him / Salus, but there's no snake and she's about to do a Kamehameha. And all the S's are huge and sideways!
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A really nice and fully literate Tetricus II - I'm not even 100% sure this is barbarous?
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A very rare coin of Tetricus II as Augustus - These are rare as barbarous coins, and a few (as in fewer than 10) examples are known that might be official - It's not entirely clear whether Tetricus II was ever made Augustus
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Tetricus I with Apollo reverse - not a type normally seen
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Also Tetricus I, but with the Tetricus II Priestly Implements reverse (This one is from @Ben)
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Some fun highly degenerate types
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4th century types

Constantine? Two captives with standards
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An assortment of fun tiny (6-10mm) Fallen Horseman types also from @Ben
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One not so tiny
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Some barbarous AE4 cross types (I used to collect these too, but recently thinned out the herd to just the best/favorites)
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And my most recent acquisition, a Celtic(?) copy of a first century Roman As or Dupondius; not enough detail to identify the original, but I suspect it's Claudius.
Barborous-Ancient-Romans
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 Posted 08/16/2019  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list

Quote:
what am I looking at to deferenciate between barbarous and official?


It helps to be very familiar with official types. Sometimes it is a very thin line and can be fairly arbitrary. There are surely unofficial coins that are so good that they are undetectable, except maybe with metal analysis. I like the extremes-- very barbarous or very good style issues. Below are some good style examples that would pass a casual look, especially from people not as familiar with the types.





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Barborous-Ancient-Romans
Valued Member
United Kingdom
106 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2019  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FuzzyDuck to your friends list
These are 3 of mine . Very rough barbarous coins but I love them for their uniqueness.
They are all UK metal detecting finds. If you have any thoughts on any of them I would be very interested to hear them.

Barborous-Ancient-Romans
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I apologize for my photo skills....or lack of them. They are very hard to photo on a phone!!
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34419 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2019  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list

Quote:
They are very hard to photo on a phone


Yes, but I think with more ambient light, we'd be able to see some of the details.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
United States
549 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2019  6:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add augustus1 to your friends list
At one time, long ago, I was a big fan of barbarous radiates. From major numismatic libraries I sought out and photocopied the relevant literature. Eventually, I made a web site on ancient imitations, of which this page web page show some Gallo-Roman barbarous radiates:

http://augustuscoins.com/ed/imit/Ba...adiates.html

I did not finish it off with descriptions, but it has some good examples.

Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2019  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list
I think I might as well post those two little coins in this thread instead of a separate identification one, because in this condition and photo quality there's probably no way for anyone to attribute them...

Bought in 2016, those photos taken in September 2017. I could swear I had better pics, but I must have misplaced the files at some point.

Seller claimed that the coins were Vandalic, and was sufficiently convincing that I paid around $15 for the pair (a really large amount as far as my collection is concerned).
In retrospect, I'm not sure why I believed him. They sure aren't official, though, so there's that, I guess?

I no longer have the diameters, but I just measured the pattern on the background item, and the circle centers are 8 mm apart.
I think this makes the coins 12x10 mm and... 11x11 mm maybe? Somewhere around there. Small AE4 size, anyway.

Barborous-Ancient-Romans Barborous-Ancient-Romans

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...I wonder if there's anything to discuss. Terrible coins, terrible pics. I really got swindled that day.

At least they're definitely barbarous, though.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1315 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  11:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Doucet to your friends list
Very nice coins everyone.

Here are a few unofficial LRB's

My favorite is the bust right Constantinopolis


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United States
7066 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  12:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list
Nice group, Scott.
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United Kingdom
2100 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list
I have just added this one:-

Constantius II - AE2 - Barbarous imitation of RIC VIII Heraclea 082

Obv:- D N CONSTANTIS P F AVG, Pearl diademed, draped & cuirassed bust right
Rev:- FEL TEMT OHIIIRATIO, Helmeted soldier left, shield on left arm, spearing falling horseman; shield at ground to right. Horseman turns to face the soldier, and reaches his left arm up towards him. He is bare headed.
Minted in Heraclea (G | _ // .SHHA).
Reference:- Imitates RIC VIII Heraclea 82 (C2)

Barborous-Ancient-Romans

and here is the prototype.

Barborous-Ancient-Romans
Pillar of the Community
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7066 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list
Excellent additions, Martin - and great photos to boot.
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list
Any comment on my pair? Or should I post them in a separate thread?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2019  01:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list
@january1may The term "Vandalic" is much overused in the trade. More marketing than history, imo. In his work on Vandal coins published in 1911, Warwick Wroth identified several parcels of small AE with African and Sicilian provenance as belonging to the "Vandalic period" (though not necessarily to the Vandals themselves). Most of those coins are now regarded by academics as simple local imitations or in some cases, products of official Roman mints. Not so in the marketplace where many ragged difficult-to-ID late AE are dubbed "Vandalic" and given a healthy markup.

On your first coin, the obverse legend begins DN IV..., perhaps Justin or Justinian? The second begins DN ARC..., almost certainly Arcadius. To my eye, they appear more mis-struck and/or worn than "barbarous". However, the stylistic line between official and unofficial among the small bronzes in the later empire is subjective.
Edited by Kushanshah
10/07/2019 01:19 am
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2019  04:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list

Quote:
The second begins DN ARC..., almost certainly Arcadius.
True, but the other side looks like it starts with DN as well, and I didn't think that was a reasonable Arcadius reverse legend. Is it?

As for the first coin, that reverse didn't look like it had a non-imitative legend at all. But maybe it was just a really mangled official one; perhaps they do get that bad (especially by 6th century).
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United States
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 Posted 10/07/2019  05:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list
Overstrikes and multiple strikes can really jumble things up. They could could really be anything and you're right, the last photo is probably the obverse of the 2nd coin with DN and a cuirassed shoulder showing.
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