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Barborous Ancient Romans

 
 
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 Posted 08/13/2019  4:47 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add FuzzyDuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Just out of interest, who here collects barborous coins?

I have a few myself, but never really hear much about them so just wanted to put the feelers out really!
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 Posted 08/13/2019  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the a limiting factor in collecting such is that there's no catalog for them. Under those circumstances each specimen is a standalone item without a certain provenance or origin.

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 Posted 08/13/2019  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do and I have an awful lot of them now from uncleaned lots (detectorists will sell big lots of them, thinking they are all junk). There is no catalogue and there never can be, but it is definitely possible to collect them. One interesting thing to try is to collect a barbaric example of every common official reverse, or to try to pick up 'unofficial' coinage with no Roman counterpart - even in the 3rd century, tribes were issuing coins with celtic horse motifs.

I myself tend not to post barbarous coins because they are often so low grade and I am not equipped to photograph them. That being said, here is a cool lot I got recently, with a bunch of die matches and linkages:


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 Posted 08/13/2019  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had a substantial collection of Roman barbarous at one time. Though I no longer collect, I am still very interested in the subject.

While there is no handy collector manual, there is a body of literature on imitations of Roman coins, mostly academic. A few suggestions to start: http://esty.ancients.info/imit/imitationrefs.html. One caveat, older literature (pre-1960) often speculates on a very late (dark age) date for radiate minims. This notion was abandoned 60 years ago and there is now consensus that Roman imitations are nearly always contemporary with their prototypes.

Cataloguing usually consists of identifying the prototype and then looking for similar examples in specialist publications.
Edited by Kushanshah
08/13/2019 7:12 pm
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 Posted 08/13/2019  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Based on their previous threads, I'm pretty sure @finn and @paralyse do too (or at least as bycatch with group lots). Consider using the search bar in the upper left hand corner of your screen with the keyword BARBAROUS to look for some super examples from them and others.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 08/14/2019  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FuzzyDuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone, I'll try and post a pic of mine when I have a chance. @spence , I did try the search but it came up with no matches.
I'm not sure why, but I do like them although often poorly made,I find it nice to have a few that most won't have in their collections
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 Posted 08/14/2019  03:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pilegicvs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a nifty one I picked up a year and a half ago. The photo is from the vendor. About 13mm. diameter, 1.2gm. Imitating Constantius II, FEL TEMP REPARATIO type. I like the reverse detail of the enemy horse and soldier, the Roman soldier is cut off above the waist. The obverse has a few random letters and a passable portrait.
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 Posted 08/14/2019  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I collect unofficial Siscian VLPP's and have a page on barbarous coinage of the 4th century.

http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/barb2/
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 Posted 08/16/2019  07:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Whilst I do not actively collect them I have acquired several over the years especially when I see something that grabs my attention for differing reasons.

This is the sort of thing that grabs my attention.

I had this Constans, FEL TEMP, Galley from Aquileia in my collection



when I saw a barbarous imitative that copies it I thought that they would make an interesting pairing.

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 Posted 08/16/2019  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FuzzyDuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That to me looks like official coinage....what am I looking at to deferenciate between barbarous and official? My barbarous coins are very obvious
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 Posted 08/16/2019  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I actively collect the eastern denarii of Septimius Severus and rarely see imitatives. They generally interest me when I do see them.

The following is a genuine COS II, VICTOR SEVER AVG



and am imitative of the same type



and some years later I found an obverse die match to this imitative with garbled reverse legend "IOVL SEN ? AVG"

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 Posted 08/16/2019  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Barbarous radiates are fun, but I agree they can never be "collected" in the sense that other coins can, simply because 99% of them are unique one-offs, and many are simply too degenerate to even tell what they're supposed to be.

Personally, I accumulate all the ones I come across in lots, although I don't specifically seek them out unless they are something truly special. Some of my favorite examples of something "truly special":

- Types with a unique reverse - I'd love to see the celtic horse reverses Ben is referring to! CNG sold a lot with unique reverse types several years ago, long before I even collected ancients:
https://www.cNGCoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=94518

- Types that are in exceptionally good style, possibly by a former mint worker

- Types that aren't just Tetricus I/II, Divo Claudio, or common 4th century type (VLPP, FTR etc)

- Types that are extraordinarily small or degenerate

Some of my favorites that I've picked up over the years:

I theorize this one might be a stab at a Gallienus Zoo type?


A decent attempt at a Gallienus, with an indecipherable reverse


A mostly literate Victorinus with a portrait that looks nothing like him / Salus, but there's no snake and she's about to do a Kamehameha. And all the S's are huge and sideways!


A really nice and fully literate Tetricus II - I'm not even 100% sure this is barbarous?


A very rare coin of Tetricus II as Augustus - These are rare as barbarous coins, and a few (as in fewer than 10) examples are known that might be official - It's not entirely clear whether Tetricus II was ever made Augustus


Tetricus I with Apollo reverse - not a type normally seen


Also Tetricus I, but with the Tetricus II Priestly Implements reverse (This one is from @Ben)


Some fun highly degenerate types



4th century types

Constantine? Two captives with standards


An assortment of fun tiny (6-10mm) Fallen Horseman types also from @Ben




One not so tiny


Some barbarous AE4 cross types (I used to collect these too, but recently thinned out the herd to just the best/favorites)





And my most recent acquisition, a Celtic(?) copy of a first century Roman As or Dupondius; not enough detail to identify the original, but I suspect it's Claudius.
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United States
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 Posted 08/16/2019  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
what am I looking at to deferenciate between barbarous and official?


It helps to be very familiar with official types. Sometimes it is a very thin line and can be fairly arbitrary. There are surely unofficial coins that are so good that they are undetectable, except maybe with metal analysis. I like the extremes-- very barbarous or very good style issues. Below are some good style examples that would pass a casual look, especially from people not as familiar with the types.














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 Posted 08/16/2019  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FuzzyDuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These are 3 of mine . Very rough barbarous coins but I love them for their uniqueness.
They are all UK metal detecting finds. If you have any thoughts on any of them I would be very interested to hear them.


















I apologize for my photo skills....or lack of them. They are very hard to photo on a phone!!
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 Posted 08/16/2019  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They are very hard to photo on a phone


Yes, but I think with more ambient light, we'd be able to see some of the details.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 08/22/2019  6:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add augustus1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At one time, long ago, I was a big fan of barbarous radiates. From major numismatic libraries I sought out and photocopied the relevant literature. Eventually, I made a web site on ancient imitations, of which this page web page show some Gallo-Roman barbarous radiates:

http://augustuscoins.com/ed/imit/Ba...adiates.html

I did not finish it off with descriptions, but it has some good examples.

My educational sites: http://augustuscoins.com/ed/
My coins for sale: http://augustuscoins.com/
My ancient-coin literature for sale: http://augustuscoins.com/numislit.html
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