PCGS Labeled Counterfeit 1741 Rouble Sells For $1,100. Why?

I've seen contemporary counterfeits go for thousands many times.




You're grossly overthinking it. Anyone that looks at that listing and doesn't know it's counterfeit is an absolute idiot, moron, or *insert favorite dumb person synonym here*. There is no way any person with a tenth of a brain could look at that listing and think it's real. No fraud here, move along....

No contemporary counterfeits were struck this well during that time frame, so forget that line of thinking.

"Counterfeit" in this case means MODERN (numismatic fake). I'd guess that some optimistic, lotto-loving soul is hoping beyond hope that PCGS was wrong.

I was curious and took a look, and indeed, there was nothing remarkable about the early bidding (see play-by-play below). The first 13 bidders and 20 bids were done before it hit $175 (probably the ones who would pay that much for what they knew to be a counterfeit). Then there was a single $500 bid, and it looks like it took the next bidder 9 tries to figure out he had to go that high ... and was sniped at the end by the 16th bidder.
What WAS remarkable was that buyers would take a chance on a "5,000 Retail" coin sold by a seller of religious books who has only one other coin sale in his feedback: a recent sale of another Russian counterfeit.
(It looks like someone has decided that selling counterfeit coins is more lucrative than selling bibles).

Play-by-play
- First bidder put in a bid of $69 which registered at starting bid of $0.99.
- Bidder2 (novice with only 34 fb) tries to top this with 6 sequential bids, finally dropping out at $39.
- Bidders 3-9 each place a single bid till the last one tops the first bidders original bid at $77. In the meantime, the first bidder has put in two more new bids ($99 and $129).
- Bidder 10 tops the original bidder at $133, who does not return. Bidder 10 is in turn exceeded by bidders 11 and 12, each entering a single bid to get us up to 12 bidders and 19 bids, at $141 (less than 15% of the final bid).

Now it gets interesting, probably reflecting bidders who missed the fact this coin is a counterfeit.
- Bidder 13 places a bid of $501, but retracts it the next day.
- By the time of the retraction, Bidder 14 enters with a $500 bid.
- Bidder 15 tries 8 times to beat bidder 14, finally surpassing on the 9th try, at $550.
.. only to be outdone 8 hours later by Bidder 16, who places a bid that we can only guess, because even when bidder 15 DOUBLES his previous bid to $1,111, Bidder 16s bid is still high enough to win.

Contemporary counterfeit.
1741 ruble.
Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha ha ha hahahahahahahaha...

This type was officially forbidden to own, with harsh penalties if found, for decades after 1741. There's a well-documented case from around 1770 (I forgot the exact date) where a guy accidentally missed one of those rubles getting slipped to him in circulation, and despite extensive defence, still got the full punishment.

This means that, unless we're dealing with the ludicrously rare coincidence of a counterfeiter making the very newest type (already unlikely) and the resulting coin surviving the next few decades (extremely unlikely), any counterfeits of the 1741 ruble would have been deliberate forgeries to fool collectors.

Curiosity question: would a TPG holder a valuable contemporary counterfeit labeling it as such? It is valuable, it it historical, it is collectible. Or would it get the same body bag treatment as a modern counterfeit?

Its an interesting group. Consider also we now see (4) counterfeits and/or one coin with no verification possible. He spent probably $160+ or more w/ PCGS to wind up with (4) body bags. I did not know the initial coin in this thread was illegal to own but the SKILL necessary to use debased metals to get the weight correct is quite remarkable so looking at his other merchandise he probably looked it up and assumed the weight was as written in KM? Its unusual but I guess at this level (Christian Book Seller?) he took a gamble with PCGS. However somebody paid some big money on this first coin ... however I am sure the weight will be different than KM and agree Sharkman a scale was not used on this coin and then compared to KM - probably <BG>. These pieces look like good forgeries. I am tracking them but unfortunately my research on CCCs has never gone into Russian coins. TPG will body bag all counterfeits but there are noted exceptions based on certain collections, series and other factors - such as U.S. Colonial Machins Mills pieces of Newburgh, NY or well documented copies from noted forgers or die makers like Bolen, Wyatt, etc... also if a big collection of Counterfeit 8 Reales as in Gurney's case a company like Stacks/Bowers could label the coins with GNL #'s and even place his name on the PCGS holder - exceptions are made when certain coins cross the block. Would not surprise me ... seriously. Look recently at the Stacks/Bowers Nov. 2019 Whitman Show (C4 Convention) and the Robert Martin Collection of U.S. Colonials and some well known copies in his collection going 4-figures. Martin was a noted Connecticut collector who passed away around a year ago.

See here:

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...bout-as-made

See also this counterfeit Spanish American piece confirmed by that shaddy notorious character named Lorenzo. See here:

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...in-edge-fine

LOL

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

There are some that they will do. As of now ICG is the only one that will slab all counterfeits in an educational slab if requested