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1876 20¢ ( Vs. PCGS )

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 Posted 12/24/2020  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list
There is an old cleaning, but it appears to be market acceptable. The toning color is a bit yellowish because of the old cleaning.

It's VF, but the issue is details or straight grade. There is a blemish in the field east of Liberty, in the triangle between the second and third right stars and Liberty. If this is just discoloration, it straight grades. If it is a gouge, the coin is detailed. Based on wear alone, it could hit VF-25, but I'm leaning toward VF-20 here as an eye appeal adjustment if it straight grades.

With a straight grade and average eye appeal, a VF-20 or -25 would snag $350 or so. For this coin, I'm with @GrapeCollects, it's probably south of $300, and much lower if it is detailed.
Edited by fortcollins
12/24/2020 12:32 am
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 Posted 12/24/2020  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list
Now that the veil has been lifted on this coin. What would be the best way for me to sell this coin and what would be a realistic price I should expect? The coin in hand looks pretty decent. The blown up pictures make it look much worse, but then again...the problems still exist (especially when magnified). My biggest concern is that the coin holder acts as its own deterrent and flashes "massive discount here". Again, a discount is obviously deserved, but I'm hoping I don't have to give the coin away.

1876-20¢--Vs.-PCGS-
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 Posted 12/24/2020  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
Sorry about that. Agree the holder dooms it. Pass the pliers.
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 Posted 12/24/2020  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list
What does "tooled" mean in this case?
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 Posted 12/24/2020  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list
The holder obviously gives a potential buyer leverage to push the price down. IMO this coin isn't badly impaired and agree it might have straight-graded. The PCGS judgment isn't holy writ. If it were mine and I wanted to sell I'd crack it and offer it as a raw VF with a possible old cleaning.
Dishonest? No, I'd say realistic.
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 Posted 12/24/2020  1:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list
Under minor modification, you can see in the obverse left and right fields that someone has deliberately messed with the surfaces. It literally has been tooled/marked/scratched in those areas. I'm leaning towards breaking it out too, because I really think the holder will kill any realistic negotiation.
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 Posted 12/24/2020  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list
I'd also say crack it. When selling post as many accurate pictures as necessary to give accurate representation of the surfaces, which will be much easier to accomplish out of the plastic. As Jaobler said, PCGS isn't the end all. I'm sure with a few differently angled shots you can get a decent feel for the surfaces on this one, let the buyer judge and decide.

Tooled, to me, is harsher sounding than cleaned or even altered surfaces. Will almost certainly bring a lot of lowball offers.
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 Posted 12/24/2020  11:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list
Slab or no slab, the gouge details the coin. I hate to say this, but with that as a gouge, rather than discoloration, I'd be looking at it well south of $200 on a bourse floor. It lacks the eye appeal needed to flip the coin, and dealers have better options to choose from. It is a bit of a tough date, but IMHO that can't overcome its problems.
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 Posted 12/25/2020  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add apcol258 to your friends list
The cheapest currently on ebay for this year in any condition is $600. Slabbed or not it should sell pretty easily there for near $300. Might be your best bet.
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 Posted 12/25/2020  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list
i had it as details cleaned. I dont think it should have been slabbed as tooled which imo is worse off than a details designation.
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 Posted 12/25/2020  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list
I would say crack it out as well but do show as many pictures to show clearly the issue.


Quote:
The cheapest currently on ebay for this year in any condition is $600.

The cheapest for sale might be higher but if you look at the sold on ebay the cheapest sold recently was under $100.00 and a few under $300.00.
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 Posted 12/25/2020  10:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list
If I were to sell on ebay then I wouldn't break it out. I'd prefer complete transparency and not deal with someone unsatisfied, thinking I was selling him something bad, and returning it.

If I shop it around a bourse floor I'd likely sell it raw since dealers can see it in hand.
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 Posted 12/25/2020  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list
I'm just one person, and this is my experience, but here is what I am seeing right now.

The coin market is in complete chaos. The only efficient market is ebay,and it's filled with junk. Coin shows aren't attracting mainstream collectors, because of COVID. Most of the bourse floor action today is dealer-to-dealer inventory adjustments, eye appeal purchases, and bullion speculators. Problem coins aren't moving anywhere near historic value, if at all. Eye appeal coins are selling, and right now eye appeal drives demand more than technical grade.

Almost all that I do right now is buyer-side agency, and my customers are being very selective. I have no interest in adding to inventory, because the buyers aren't there. I suspect many other dealers sense this same caution. The ones I have known for years from shows and deals openly say so.

Some of these changes may be long term. Brick-and-mortar shops may become a thing of the past. Overhead costs, security concerns, and rolling COVID restrictions may bring an end to this era. The existing public auction sites are too dependent on guesswork, weak policies, USPS delivery, and yes, more guesswork to function efficiently. Until something like the late, lamented Teletrade reappears, collectors will either have to risk the shark-infested waters of ebay or sit on the sidelines. (Disclosure: I do not buy or sell on ebay, and never will.) Coin shows are problematic, too. COVID risks, security issues, and travel costs aside, the selection of coins and lack of competition by buyers as well as sellers make shows an expensive gamble right now.

The marketplace is moving rapidly to online transactions. Again, there needs to be a collector-focused option like the old Teletrade. Without that, the market will continue to be the two extremes: high end coins from the big auction houses and attic junk sales on ebay. The middle market - the traditional collectors - will languish.

That's a very long rant, but my way of saying that it is better to hold the problem coins for now and hope better days return. Eye appeal coins will still sell.

Just my couple of cents worth.
Edited by fortcollins
12/25/2020 12:42 pm
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 Posted 12/25/2020  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list

Quote:
The coin market is in complete chaos. The only efficient market is ebay, and it's filled with junk. Coin shows aren't attracting mainstream collectors, because of COVID. Most of the bourse floor action today is dealer-to-dealer inventory adjustments, eye appeal purchases, and bullion speculators. Problem coins aren't moving anywhere near historic value, if at all. Eye appeal coins are selling, and right now eye appeal drives demand more than technical grade.

Almost all that I do right now is buyer-side agency, and my customers are being very selective. I have no interest in adding to inventory, because the buyers aren't there. I suspect many other dealers sense this same caution. The ones I have known for years from shows and deals openly say so.


I am not sure about the overall demand picture, but I am definitely in the market to buy quality, mid-grade coins.
The problem as I see it is supply. I went through thousands of ebay listings over the last couple of weeks and almost all listings are low quality (junk). Occasionally, you see a nice coin, and before you can make up your mind it has sold for well over greysheet.
Coin auctions at Heritage, Great Collection (GC), and Stacks Bowers (SB), are not super great either. For example, the amount of Details coins I have encountered on GC is enormous. The supply on SB is a trickle. Heritage seems to have the best offerings, but then again it is not like a whole lot.
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 Posted 12/26/2020  12:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list
FortCollins (and othes), I appreciate your perspectives. I will cautiously move forward with such sales once bourse floors open up. I have a lot of very nice coins (with a handful of some problem ones) that I will be selling over the next few years.
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