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1964 1 Cent Indent Strike Question

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 Posted 01/16/2023  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list
From a mechanical point of view, squashed denticles from the host coin could not be indented/incuse; they would be flattened.
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 Posted 01/17/2023  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list
Thanks for all of your responses so far. Error collecting is certainly challenging, and you never stop learning. Lol.

I have several indent strikes, and they have similar features such as a Rim Fin, a warped edge, a flattened rim adjacent to the fin, crescent shaped indented area. The coin in question has these characteristics too, so a partial brockage came to mind.

What do you guys think about this?

Aligned partial brockages:
Definition: A partial brockage in which the incuse, mirror-image design elements line up with the corresponding die-struck design elements on the opposite face.

http://www.error-ref.com/brockages-...strike-clip/


Edit: spelling
Edited by robmck1967
01/17/2023 6:47 pm
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 Posted 01/17/2023  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denny7000 to your friends list
I've looked at your pictures many times and I still don't know, interesting coin.
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 Posted 01/18/2023  08:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SP67 to your friends list

Quote:
Aligned partial brockages:
Definition: A partial brockage in which the incuse, mirror-image design elements line up with the corresponding die-struck design elements on the opposite face.

http://www.error-ref.com/brockages-...strike-clip/


I think you're right robmck1967.

Assuming the pattern is incuse, aligned partial brockage is the best scenerio.

But I have to tell that this is the thinnest off-axis Capped Die I've seen for now that produced this coin!
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 Posted 01/18/2023  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list
My first impression, uninformed as it may be, is that it's a small incomplete clip (or whatever that's called) and what you see is a result of striking the odd planchet. I have trouble perceiving the denticles as indented from these images. It looks dovetailed like a clip would be. I can talk myself into seeing a small Blakesley effect on the portrait side opposite the defect, but it could be that the rim is abraded in that area.
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 Posted 01/18/2023  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Levaril to your friends list
With the denticles being incuse, and considering their position in the flattened area, it seems pretty much certain it would be a small elliptical strike clip left in the strike chamber that created a partial brockage. I suppose someone could conceivably recreate that by making their own clip and stamping it hard themselves against another penny at some later point as PMD, but you would expect the colour to be all off in that case. Would take a lot of pressure and a lot to setup too. Looks kinda legit to me, but certainly a weird series of events to create it.
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 Posted 01/18/2023  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list

Here are the 3 possible types of aligned partial brockages according to error-ref. Number one is most common and most likely due to the rim fim that is present.



1. Brockage from an off-center (partial) die cap. This is the most common cause. A planchet is fed into the striking chamber in an off-center position. It is struck by the dies on both faces and then sticks to one of the dies (usually the upper or hammer die). Another planchet is fed into the striking chamber and the partial die cap is struck into it. The result is an incuse, mirror-image version of the design that is aligned with the die-struck design on the opposite face. These types of aligned partial brockages generally lack an impression of the design rim. When struck in-collar, metal often flows over the top of the collar to form a horizontal lip

2. Brockage from an elliptical clip coin. An oval planchet (an elliptical clip) enters the striking chamber and settles against the collar. It is struck by the dies on both faces and then sticks to one of the dies (again, usually the hammer die). Another planchet is fed into the striking chamber and the elliptical coin is struck into it. Once again you end up with an incuse mirror-image version of the design that is aligned with the die-struck design on the opposite face. This type of aligned partial brockage will usually show an impression of the design rim and will lack horizontal lipping.

3. Brockage from an elliptical strike clip. A planchet is fed into the striking chamber in an off-center position. During the strike it is sheared in two between the hammer die and a collar that is frozen in the "up" position. The oval remnant of the coin within the striking chamber then sticks to one of the dies (usually the hammer die) and is struck into the next planchet. This type of aligned partial brockage may show an abnormally broad "rim" impression, which actually represents an impression of the rounded shoulder that often forms on the face struck by the anvil die. Horizontal lipping is generally absent.
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 Posted 01/19/2023  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list
Post mint damage to my eye. The evidence otherwise contradicts itself.

The coin is no longer round, which means the collar die was not engaged. The Rim Fin however is a function of metal pushed up against the collar die.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

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 Posted 01/19/2023  10:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list
SPP...It seems round...here are some new pics.


1964-1-Cent-Indent-Strike-Question
1964-1-Cent-Indent-Strike-Question

Thanks for everyone's comments so far!
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 Posted 01/21/2023  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list
I have this posted on another site and Mike Diamond confirmed that it is an aligned partial brockage!

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 Posted 01/21/2023  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list
Partial brockage of what, exactly?
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 01/21/2023  10:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list

Mike Diamond's comment:

This is a very small, aligned partial brockage. In other words, the brockage is aligned with the die-struck details on the opposite face. Such brockages can be produced by an elliptical clip error, elliptical strike clip, or off-center (partial) die cap. The absence of horizontal lipping lowers the odds that it's from a die cap. The absence of an impression of a rounded shoulder reduces the odds that it's from an elliptical strike clip. Therefore, the most probable explanation is that it was generated by a small, elliptical piece of coin metal (probably an elliptical clip planchet) that settled against the striking chamber. After it was struck, this small elliptical demi-coin stuck to the hammer (reverse) die and was struck into the planchet represented by your coin.
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 Posted 01/22/2023  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list
Do you not find it odd, that the "brockage" design elements line up perfectly with what the design would be on a normally struck coin?

Secondly, the 'brockage' rim thickness is twice as large, but the denticles are not enlarged.

Lastly, the depth of the indent is very shallow; much less than any strike-through clip element I have seen on 1-cent coins.

As much as I respect Mike's research and work, I don't find his interpretation plausible with this coin.

You would have an easier time convincing me it was double struck, with the second strike through an overlapping thin planchet, or a die cap fragment.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 01/22/2023  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list
SPP...If you would like to see the coin in hand, I would happily mail it to you for examination. You have my email address.
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 Posted 01/24/2023  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add robmck1967 to your friends list

Quote:
Do you not find it odd, that the "brockage" design elements line up perfectly with what the design would be on a normally struck coin?


Yes! That is why I bought it. I couldn't see anything else that pointed to it being PMD. I like good mystery, don't you?

Would you like to examine it in hand?
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