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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10048 Posts |
Because the grading companies use absolutely nothing verifiable and no scientific standards to assign a grade. The grade is subjective based only upon what the graders who see it that day call it as being. This is also why the profitable re-slabbing aspect of the business exists as it does. If they would use something verifiable then they would lose a lot of money.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1780 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
36903 Posts |
Earle42 excellent response. I have never believed a coin with chop marks would classify as an MS coin. Those are blatant signs that it did circulate.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
75159 Posts |
This should of gotten the details grade.  Errers and Varietys.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3477 Posts |
Quote:
the grading companies use absolutely nothing verifiable and no scientific standards to assign a grade Are there verifiable scientific standards for the grading of coins? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I suppose it's because "uncirculated" is a subjective statement of the coin's condition and not adhering to the strict definition of uncirculated. Even then it's a stretch, since a chopmarked coin is not in the condition that it was in when it left the mint. I mean, MS literally means mint state. Nothing screams "I circulated" quite like a chopmark. It's kinda funny that they also put it as a variety. I guess it's beneficial to have a numerical grade. I note that PCGS also MS straight-grades the Canadian JOP counterstamped dollars as a variety. I found a 1935 graded MS66. Pretty much the same thing as the Trade dollars. JOP did it specifically to promote circulation. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
...There, fixed it...   Edited by mrwiskers
12/28/2023 06:59 am
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18717 Posts |
 perfect |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
My, such cynicism!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
The MS designation by the TPG's means no circulated wear not that the coin's condition is mint state, for example, MS60 Details cleaned by ANACS, UNC Details cleaned by both NGC and PCGS. PCGS is not breaking new ground by adding a number grade to coins with issues. There are a lot of collectors that collect Trade dollars by chop mark. It is difficult to put a set together of Trade dollars by date and mint mark with chop marks. PCGS to capitalize on this market added grading numbers to the chop marks to make it competitive in their registry sets for coins with chop marks. Some chop marks will make the coin value increase and some chop marks will make the coin value decrease depending on rarity of chop marks. I pick up this 1874 S MS63 chop mark for about 1K under a straight grade without chop marks. Do I consider it a straight graded coin? No. Do I like the chop marks on the coin? Yes  Edited by Slider23
12/28/2023 10:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
...you make some strong points, Slider, & who wouldn't love that beautiful Trade dollar & strong chopmark, btw ... ...but, I would counter that MS does mean Mint State, which would not include any outside wear or damage ... or, as APMEX explains: ..."A Mint State coin is one that is uncirculated and resembles its original state when it was produced ... Mint state coins have never been in circulation so when buyers get these coins, they are buying a coin in the same condition as originally produced, or very close to it. ..." ( https://learn.apmex.com/learning-gu...-state-coin/ ) ... ... TPGs agree that, by their standards, MS grades mean no circulation ... ...Merchants chopping a coin & passing it along would, in my humble opinion, qualify as circulation, & the proof being the chop or chops... ...My point is that TPGs should use designations other that MS for coin surfaces altered after it left the mint ... ...& for the link provided ...Wow...what an assembly! very nice! thanks 4 the link ... Edited by mrwiskers
12/28/2023 11:58 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
My personal and professional opinion is that the act of stamping a chop mark into a coin means that it has been physically handled by a person and is therefore no longer Uncirculated in the strictest sense. However, the gap between AU and Uncirculated is rarely so black and white in reality. Is a coin that was handled by a person other than a Mint worker for 30 seconds then placed into a cabinet and never again touched still "Uncirculated" or is it now "AU?" What if it's handled for a day? A week? So on...
Most dealers and collectors will allow a degree of physical handling before they consider a coin "AU", but it's subjective, not scientific.
I find it somewhat dubious that PCGS will certify a chopmarked coin as Uncirculated, but will not offer the same privilege to most counterstamped coins in the same condition. I tend to agree with NGC's views - a chopmarked coin is technically damaged, regardless of whether or not the chop mark itself makes the coin collectible. (By necessity, this distinction excludes coins that were counterstamped or marked DURING the minting process.)
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
12/28/2023 12:38 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
Mrwiskers, I agree with what you state in principle about mint state, but the TPG's bend the rules to meet their financial goals. NGC Details the Trade dollar for the chop marks, but the NGC chop marked Trade dollars often have been cleaned with no note about the cleaning. I see the PCGS chop mark designation on the label as a polite way of saying details, and I like the way that PCGS grades Trade dollars vs NGC. Edited by Slider23
12/28/2023 1:03 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
..yeah, slider I see your point ... we agree on what you say, but, from the strictest, conservative point of view, they should not designate MS ...
...again, what a great specimen you have, ....
Edited by mrwiskers
12/28/2023 1:31 pm
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Posted 12/27/2023 7:50 pm
