Found In A Major Auction Inventory

Archraz - Correct

This coin was not made in the 1860's it uses a Standardized Die pair that was introduced in ALL branch mints in 1887. It is very distinctive and there are Dragon's Teeth (an anti-counterfeiting device) under the cap between the two central lower rays.

The coin is a real 8R ALTERED. It is a bullion item and anyone that believes it is real needs to get the book "Resplandores" by Dunigan and Parker to see what the original types looked like.

Coins like this and the simple fact that they appear in Auction Catalogs with nice sounding descriptions are the reason people need to KNOW with total certainty what they are buying.

Does the Auction house start with a B ?
auctions on right now?
Please let us know IF you do get a reply from them....
I would be surprised if you do.
I have written and called German and Austrian auctioneers... most of them have their noses so high up in the air, they even forget to say Thank You.
hhb

jfransch- Wow, that's just nuts! It appears that either this action house is not that familiar with Cap & Rays 8's or they truly did get this from an old collection and presumed that they therefore must be real. Everybody: "knowledge is power."

The auction house has replied. They asked for a detailed analysis of each coin I suspected so I sent in 18 that I was 100% positive were forgeries. I gave detailed reasons for each. They do seem VERY concerned that they have egg on their face. The lot is consigned by a party they trusted. So I guess I have thrown them a real monkey wrench. I warned them that there were others that were highly suspect even among the more common dates.

Archraz The dragon's teeth appeared at different times at different facilities. The first to use them was Mexico City in 1867. The first BRANCH mint was Oaxaca in 1881. The others fell in line rapidly and by the end of 1887 all branches were using them.

hhbkiddo The auction house is in Great Britain and jfransch has hit the nail on the head. These people are genuinely trustworthy in my opinion and I have dealt with them on numerous occasions. I am waiting for a reply to my detailed letter on the Cap and Ray coins before proceeding.

jfransch I was sure in most of the cases you cited that the coins were forgeries, HOWEVER, my area of expertise is really in the Cap and Ray series. I consider myself an expert there BUT I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THE PORTRAIT series. I did intend to pass along my "suspects" listing next after I hear about the first group. I wonder how large the group was and if there are examples in other countries?

The 666 coin had a very odd mouth and I even wondered if it was a counterfeit (Numismatic Fraud) but the dark area at the FM and the obvious damage to the left crown made me suspect a crude alteration.

I have listed an additional 25 Bust and Pillar 8Rs I suspected of being forgeries as well.

I believe it would be best for them to cancel this auction or at least totally withdraw all coins from that one consignor.

After three letters back and forth with the auction house here is their last reply:

Thank you for the information regarding these coins, we have been in contact with Richard Ponterio and I am asking him to look at the bust dollars and pillar dollars. I hope you can understand that from our perspective we do not handle many of these coins, and often on genuine ones there are anomalies and slightly crude details, probably why it is an area full of danger of forgeries. We will not take any bids on the coins you have flagged as spurious, other than under-bids from those who perhaps are interested in the coins as forgeries in themselves. For example Lot 715 has a reserve of only £80. If you would be interested in that coin at that level feel free to bid. I do not know the situation regarding the vendor, whether he has tried to deceive us. Richard Ponterio knew exactly who the person was and we didn't tell him.

I think we have good results here. IN fact as good as can be expected. They have taken me at my word on the 18 Cap and Ray coins and they are checking the suspects. Richard Ponterio is going to look at all of the Portrait and Pillar coins as a cross check. He is a specialist in Mexican and an expert used by ANACS to verify tougher coins. The fact that Mr. Ponterio knew the owner without being told could mean this collection has been on the market before. I has asked to be informed of the findings.

Regarding the value of counterfeit coins (for anyone interested in an "underbid") - there are different approaches to value of counterfeits - but as a long time collector, I place minimal value on Numismatic frauds such as these. Copies of rarities made recently, by casting, striking or alteration are worth, in my opinion, just a few dollars over melt. But some collectors do buy them as "fillers". I can understand that if they are in the $6 range but not when the reach hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Be cautious - the statement made by the auction house is a good summary of the situation all collectors face;

Bravo, Swamberbob, bravo. You truly have done something great for the numismatic world, and you have proven yourself as an authority by being able to drastically alter the outcome of a major world auction.

I also contacted the auction house back on 8/27 to comment on the Mo mintmark busts that were suspicious at best. I also received response back immediately that they were concerned and were going to contact Richard Ponterio. I think their quick response and willingness to bring in an expert are a tribute to the integrity of the auction house.