A Couple Of New 8 Reales Additions (Neat Error)

I agree with jfransch the 1821 no mouth is always a suspect and this coin has some of the traits of a Boston style forgery.

The bullion fakes (Boston types) are noted for die cutting errors - wrong dates (like 1294 or 1872 or 1896 all Charles IIII), wrong associations die to die (mules of incorrect designs), spelling errors and position elements like the misplaced s. But they will be full weight correct assay silver - that is why they escape detection and were used for so long in China. Many "returning" Boston's come from China so we can attach blame to the wrong party (in a few cases).

SG would detect a fraud - a low silver alloy but that would move this coin to the normal Counterfeit category.

I would like to know the SG here.

I am glad the coin certified. That is good for you and your investment.

Unfortunately it is not a guarantee that the coin was not made in the 1880's. The "Boston" style coins were in some instances made so well that they DO pass as real. That is what makes them soooooo interesting as a group.

The proof I offer is of course the Micro O US dollars that certified for years until a group was submitted simultaneously and a grader noted an impossible die match. That was just DUMB LUCK that resulted in those forgeries being spotted.

On page 727 of the Second volume of Calbetto's work is a very interesting note;

Had a chance to perform SG before sending it back for a reholder and it tested 10.3

Bob, what I'm failing to understand is why would someone bother counterfeit a coin using correct amount of silver in the process?

TK, it is because you could buy the silver needed to make the bustman dollar for less than $1 and the Bustman coins actually carried a premium (up to 8% according to the book "Crime of 73" by Robert Van Ryzin) over a US dollar because of their demand for trade in the Orient. Silver was flooding the markets as the Comstock and other major silver finds were ramping up production. The US Trade dollar made its appearance to try and compete but was unsuccessful and the Morgan dollars that followed starting in 1878 were really minted as a government subsidy to the Western Silver interests, there was no need in commerce for the hundreds of millions of Morgan dollars that were minted, they were just struck, bagged and stored away in the treasury buildings.

Thank you for the explanation, jfransch. I didn't think of that aspect and have been only focusing on the reproduction of Bust coinage by British as the way to undermine Spanish dominance in silver trade.

jfransch You nailed the concept of how you can make a full intrinsic value coin and still create a profit. But the Crime of 1873 uses a VERY low estimate of the Chinese premium. The premium was 8% by 1830. For decades it was above 25% and reached a high point of 80% premium. It was 25% in 1900. There is an excellent study of the premium itself which was published in 2009 which details the specifics of the rates but never makes the correlation that it drove two or three generations of forgers.

This premium over intrinsic value was STUPID then (as expressed by many officials on both sides for YEARS) but it drove a clandestine industry for nearly 100 years and involved MILLIONS of dollars.

I should probably apologize to anyone who is of Chinese descent because they are far from alone in this penchant for paying MORE than melt for bullion. It is happening today. Every time a US citizen buys a silver ounce from the US Government they pay TOO much.

Has anyone noticed the auctions for Pagnani Mint silver bars? Check them out on ebay. It is very interesting to look at past auctions and compare them to spot prices on the same day. They sell 10oz 3 oz and 1 oz. The have a pretty stamp applied several times BUT they sell for 20% OVER spot all the time? WHY?

The 10 ounces of silver in one of those bars is no better than the 10 ounces in any other bar but that mint gets great bids. Why? I don't know. It is again foolish a premium for absolutely ZIP.

The premium over melt get super high in the case of the ounce rounds where they have exceeded a 100% premium - BEATING the Chinese.

So what I am making fun of - is the willingness of most people to pay too much for silver based simply on the stamp that appears on the silver. It must be a very natural thing.