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Rggoodie And His Grading Guide

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Pillar of the Community

United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2005  08:43 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I thought that it would be better to reply to this thread here in the main forum.

Here is the guide as listed by rggoodie: My comments will be in Red.

Prior to 1986 and the evolution of our current grading companies the coin market was very limited. As with today, people had no idea how to grade, or even take the time to learn. With limited numbers of grading scales, collectors lose out. All BU coins are not equal. All AU coins are not equal. All XF coins are not equal, and this applies to all the current grades. For those who wish for simpler days, you need to learn how to play the game by the rules we all deal with. The days of a few grades are long passed. I do not feel that the current system is perfect, but it is far better than the days of a few grades. For those who still use the 7 point system, please offer all your MS-63 or better to me at regular BU prices, or AU sliders at XF prices.

Brilliant Uncirculated
Also referred to as FDC (Fleur de Coin - flower of the die). Although struck with normal dies, a coin described as BU is pristine, almost prooflike in appearance, being perfectly sharp, absolutely flawless and showing no signs of wear or bag marks. On the US grading scale, such a coin is described as MS-65. Grading at this superior level has become more complex in recent years with distinctions being made in many catalogs between (from
highest to lowest state of preservation) - FDC, GEM Uncirculated and Choice Uncirculated.

Uncirculated
A coin which shows no signs of being in circulation. Coins in mint rolls are classed as uncirculated. Due to high-speed production techniques, even uncirculated coins may show slight imperfections such as minor bag marks or tiny rim indentations, especially on larger coins.

Extremely Fine or Extra Fine (EF or XF)
Under magnification, these coins show only the slightest amount of wear in addition to slight bag marks. Wear will be confined to the very high points of the design and the natural mint lustre common to uncirculated coins will be still almost intact.

Very Fine (VF)
Slightly more wear will be evident without magnification but the coin is still in a high state of preservation. A magnifier will show numerous light scratches over the high points and on the fields of the coin. Most of the high points will be affected and only traces of the mint lustre will be present.

Fine (F)
Considerable signs of wear will be apparent on raised surfaces and the fields of the coin will be quite dull. Almost all sections of the coin will exhibit some forms of wear. Generally there will be no traces of lustre and the rim border will be smooth in parts.

Very Good (VG)
A strange description for a coin which is rather ordinary. If you see a coin for sale described as 'circulated', you should assume that this is the best it will grade. The whole of the coin is showing significant amounts of wear although all of the main detail is still visible. Usually only scarce coins and those of historical significance are worth collecting in this condition.

Good (G)
Again, the wrong word to describe the state of preservation of the coin. Nearly all the fine detail is lost although most of the main detail and lettering is still visible. The surface of the coin will be showing considerable scratching.

Fair
This coin is really showing its age or abused life. The design, including most of the main features, have disappeared through many years of handling. At best you can still make out the issuing country.

Poor
You can tell what shape the coin is, but that's about all. There is virtually nothing left to see - definitely scrap value only.

This is exactly why the US has grades such as AU. Trying to fit all coins into 7 grades just does not work.

In-Between Grades, Split Gradings and Additional Descriptions

Many dealers, in catalogs and advertisements, use in-between grades such as nUNC, aVF or gVF.
A coin described as aVF (almost VF) is one not quite up to VF standard but pretty close to the mark. It might also be described as F+ or nVF (nearly VF).
A coin described as gVF (Good VF) meets all the requirements of VF condition and then a little more. It could also be described as VF+ or, if it were a little better still, aEF.

The following table of in-between gradings, with their approximate percentage grading equivalents, may be useful:

100% UNC 65% aVF, nVF
99% vUNC 55% F+, gF
98% aUNC, nUNC 45% F
97% EF+, gEF 40% aF, nF
95% EF 35% VG+
90% aEF, nEF 25% VG
85% VF+, gVF 20% aVG, nVG
75% VF 15% G

Where the condition on one side of a coin varies from that on the other side, it is common practice to report the two gradings separately. For example, a coin described as VF/nVF has an obverse in
Very Fine condition while the reverse has slightly more wear and grades just below VF.

Been there, done that. Does not work.

When split gradings are used, it is common practice to state the condition of the obverse first and the reverse second. Another common practice is to indicate a range. This is normally used where a number of coins are offerred as a lot. For example, EF-UNC indicates the coin(s) grade between
both those classifications.
Another good practice in grading coins is to describe abnormal features of a coin as well as the
overall grade. Examples include:
* EF+, lightly toned
* aUNC, tiny rim nick on reverse
* VF, washed, retoning
* nEF, 8 pearls (see below for details) ...
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23507 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2005  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ND
I am only posting direct quotes out of the Australian reference material.

When grading or trading American Coins, because of the market one is forced o use the 70 point system.

But since I deal mostly with Australians or those collecting Australian coinage. I have to speak their language (When in Rome...)

If I try to list or purchase an Australian coin using the US grading - It is a foreign language to those I am dealing with.

That is why the first part of the post on grading showed how countries such as France, Germany, Denmark, etc grade.

Not trying to cause any hate or discontent,
just spreading a bit of Knowledge.

We all continue to learn fom each other.
Thanks for your feedback
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2005  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This wasn't geared towards how others grade coins. Many here feel that US coins should follow the same scale which is why I made my post the way that I did. I have been working on learning more about ancients and they also follow a different grading system. We just have to learn which is which and deal with it the best that we can. I certianly appreciate you finding and posting this information.
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23507 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2005  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by national dealer

This wasn't geared towards how others grade coins. Many here feel that US coins should follow the same scale which is why I made my post the way that I did. I have been working on learning more about ancients and they also follow a different grading system. We just have to learn which is which and deal with it the best that we can. I certianly appreciate you finding and posting this information.


Thanks again for your feedback
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
Rest in Peace
catman's Avatar
United States
954 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2005  06:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add catman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ND,

I have to disagree with you on the 70 point grading system and the fact that you should reduce the grade if xx problem is there or increase the grade if its a rarer than normal date.

You will end up with total confusion. Where does this grading system stop. I have seen dealers at shows that have graded coins MS-65.8.. I think we have already gone over the edge. I have yet to come across a person who can, on a consistent basis, grade 1 point apart.

To require all collectors to submitt their coins to slabbing companies just so they can be graded and then be told the company mis-graded is too much for the collector. It takes all the fun out of the hobby

I suggest that each person pick a grading system they like. Learn to grade using that system and then buy and sell by that system only. Then let the market establish a standardized system.

catman
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2005  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was because of the controversy surrounding third-party grading that I set up the Grading Practice section as I did. When it comes down to brass tacks, the grade of the coin is what the majority of the numismatic community agrees it is, regardless of what a TPG has graded it.

That said, for the most part the different grading scales aren't all that different. The international scale just allows more leeway for each grade. A VF internationally could be anywhere from VF20-VF35 by the 70-point scale. Assuming it was graded correctly initially, that leaves the finer points of the grade up to the individual. It's still a VF coin no matter what scale you use.

The 70-point scale could be argued to be too specific. The international scale could be argued to be too general. As in everything else, you can't please everyone all of the time. Ideally, we should all know how to grade by both standards and be able to adapt according to where we are and who we're dealing with.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2005  06:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by catman

ND,

I have to disagree with you on the 70 point grading system and the fact that you should reduce the grade if xx problem is there or increase the grade if its a rarer than normal date.
You will end up with total confusion. Where does this grading system stop. I have seen dealers at shows that have graded coins MS-65.8.. I think we have already gone over the edge. I have yet to come across a person who can, on a consistent basis, grade 1 point apart.
I suggest that each person pick a grading system they like. Learn to grade using that system and then buy and sell by that system only. Then let the market establish a standardized system.
catman


I will not say that the current market grading system is the best, but it is far better than a simple system. There are distinct differences between an AU-50 and an AU-58. I also agree that not all AU-58 coins are the same. There are some that have the absolute slightest of wear that can only fall into AU-58 while some are on the border of AU-55 and AU-58.
The system that we use today is based on the Large Cent scale developed by Sheldon for his own personal use. The 70 point system was designed for market value.
Unfortunately, the system tries to encompass all and that will never work. The rare coins have a grading scale all to themselves. This doesn't work either. Over the years, a few tried technical grading, and many thought that this was the answer. However, the technical grade is based solely on wear. People will still add or subtract based on eye appeal.
I am not sure what the answer is, but I am sure that it will have to become more complicated to serve the overall good.
Rest in Peace
catman's Avatar
United States
954 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2005  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add catman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You may be right here ND. I don't think you will ever get me to change however. I offer a price based on what I'm willing to pay for a coin. The seller can accept or reject it at the option. When I offer a coin for sale I advise the buyer of what grading system I'm using and have the guide with me. He can use any system he wants to. Its not going to effect my price. My price is based on what I paid for a coin.

Everyone stays happy this way. The have the right to accept orreject any offer I make.

catman
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 02/21/2005  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK Slow down
When I started this discussion it was because I am still a newbie.
Since I collect Australian Coins. I needed to learn the Australian Grading System.
since I live in The USA. I needed to learn the US system. so the chart that was posted was for other newbies like myself to learn the differences between the different grading systems around the world.
I don't believe the world will ever agree on a single grading system
I have learned when in Rome ...grade as the Romans do.

Each of us has opinions about grading systems and grading companies.
I know when I speak with American dealers they are going to talk in Sheldon terms when I deal with an Australian dealer they will deal in their system.
BOTH RIGHT.

If I go into a shop in the US I expect them to know the 70 point system. In the Shops in Australia I would get a dumbfounded look if I asked about the # grading.

We all came here to help each other.
We certainly can disagree about grades.
But as has been discussed before. If you dont agree with a sellers grade. don't insult the seller- Don't buy the coin!

Or in response to the disagreements that have been occuring here.
To quote an old American television advertisment for Rolaids
"Stop! You are both Right!"
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2005  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The fact is that both grading scales are used regularly. I think that most people who purchase US coins expect the coins to be graded on the 70-point scale and most people who purchase World coins expect them to be graded on the international scale.

For what it's worth, we have started stating both grades in our auctions whether it be for US or World coins. For example, "Good G4 or Good+ G6). There is really no other way that I could think of that would satisfy both types of collectors. If anyone has a better idea, I'm open to suggestions.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2005  11:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see it as anyone being right or wrong. While each person should have some system in which they can judge value. Some can use a basic system and it works for them. As long as they understand that most are attempting to use a standard. We have no real system here in the states for all coins. It is the same with using books like Photograde. Not all coins should be judged by the same standards. We already discussed how some mints do not strike coins with the same quality as others.

Now, having said all that, you make a good point in "doing as the Romans while in rome". We all deal with the basic standards whether we like it or not. I do not like the current system, but without getting too complicated, we can't closer.

My goal is too get people to learn to judge for themselves. To stop relying on someone elses opinion. I think that we will all agree on that one ;-)
Rest in Peace
catman's Avatar
United States
954 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2005  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add catman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Susan,

My suggestion is this. Pick a system that you personally like. Buy and Sell using that system. Let any buyers or sellers know what system your using and let it go at that.

You can't please everyone. It's too hard to be trying to use two systems at the same rime and you end up confusing your customer.

ND and I have two different opinions. This is OK.! We both are willing to advise prospective buyer's of the grading system we're using and there is no attempt at deceit by either of us, The buyer can decide what they want.

catman

steve
Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2005  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add national dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Catman is right. Honesty is the best way to deal with people. When I buy and sell coins I tell people what I believe, not what holder says. I try to give quality photos (if online) and I offer a complete money back guarantee. In 2003 I had "1" coin returned. In 2004 "0" coins returned. Rarely do I keep up with the price guides in terms of selling. I place a value on the coin when purchased and regardless of the up to date value, I sell the coin and I am happy.

Now as far as having differences of opinions with others...I love that. I still learn new things everyday, and look forward to learning more. While I will not agree with most things that I learn, each lesson gives me something. I can better understand why I use what I do, and why others use what they use. Understanding people is what makes it easy to provide better products and services.

If I know what you consider to be an AU coin, it allows me to cater the coins that I offer to you. Knowing your customer (and for collectors) your dealer, you will have a much better relationship and be happier with your purchases.
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
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 Posted 02/21/2005  12:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by national dealer

Catman is right. Honesty is the best way to deal with people. When I buy and sell coins I tell people what I believe, not what holder says. I try to give quality photos (if online) and I offer a complete money back guarantee. In 2003 I had "1" coin returned. In 2004 "0" coins returned. Rarely do I keep up with the price guides in terms of selling. I place a value on the coin when purchased and regardless of the up to date value, I sell the coin and I am happy.

Now as far as having differences of opinions with others...I love that. I still learn new things everyday, and look forward to learning more. While I will not agree with most things that I learn, each lesson gives me something. I can better understand why I use what I do, and why others use what they use. Understanding people is what makes it easy to provide better products and services.

If I know what you consider to be an AU coin, it allows me to cater the coins that I offer to you. Knowing your customer (and for collectors) your dealer, you will have a much better relationship and be happier with your purchases.


And I think we are all in agreement on this.

I buy/sell using the 70-point system. I grade all of my coins by the 70-point system. To include the equivalent more generalized grade is not difficult. And I have done everything I can do be sure that I'm consistent and always include all reasons for my grade. That's all I can do.

For what it's worth, we've had two returns in 3 years - one that I overgraded and recognized as overgraded right before it was shipped out. (I included our telephone number with this one so that the buyer could call. Every now and then I have blonde moments ). One was a top tier TPG graded coin that I agreed with the grade assigned and resold at that same grade.

To explain the grade with good pictures seems to work for us. That way, no one is in the dark as to "why". It's easier to agree or disagree with something if you have all of the facts in front of you.
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