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Spain - A Phillip III Crown With NE Counterstamp

 
 
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Pillar of the Community
778 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2012  10:12 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

The Phillip III 8 Reales in my Spanish type set has a "NE" counterstamp.

The possibilty exists that the "NE" stands for "New England" and was officially applied in the 1600's in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Some authorities refute that.

There is much correspondence, public and private, discussing the matter.





Bill
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2012  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a superb and scarce coin you have here :)
It's also the first time I see this C/S (I'm not much into those though) - I know a bit more about later ones, but I have no clue about those.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2012  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What authorities are refuting? In 1652 this type punch was used (NE) to initiate the Mass. Silver coinage on various denominations prior to the Willow Trees. Not exactly like yours ... interesting piece. It would be incredible if the logo's matched to the original ... but they don't. A later punch. Interesting. Noteworthy.
John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
04/05/2012 12:57 pm
Pillar of the Community
778 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2012  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In John Hull, The Mint and economics of Massachusetts Coinage (2002), the author pictures and discusses this coin (page 307).
"On October 8, 1672, the Massachusetts Bay General Court approved legislation that Hull and Sanderson would counterstamp Spanish silver coins with their true weight and the initials NE. The order never went into effect. However, at some later date, probably in the nineteenth century, someone counterstamped a few dated Spanish silver intending to pass them as authentic counterstamped coins. They neglected to include the weight, which was the primary reason for the legislation."

I suggested to the author that the 1672 Act (see Crosby, page 80) may be interpreted another way. In the second paragraph, beginning with 'Whereas peeces are of more . . ', it says that coins of "right allay, and due weight" will be stamped NE. The third paragraph deals with underweight Spanish coins. It says "that peeces of eight vnder the weight of sixe shillings . . . . be impressed vpon the stamp how much each peece doth weigh in legible figures, wth the other letters on ye samew, & of the same Alloy."
In order words, the weight may only have been required on underweight silver coins.
I believe that the auther agrees that this is a possible interpretation..

(This 1617 piece weighs a nearly full 26.96gms).


Bill
Edited by BillSnyder
04/05/2012 3:57 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2012  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The following piece was mentioned in a thread either on here or another forum...:

http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=16001

Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2012  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gosh, it's the first time I see a such transitional 8 reales !
And a royal, even better :D
I don't imagine anyone would damage a such coin just for the fun of making a fake counterstamp ;)
Pillar of the Community
778 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2012  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, RealesWatcher. I will add that one to my short list of known NE counterstamped 8 Reales.

Here is another Potosi counterstamped piece. It was listed in the April 26-27-28, 1951 Hans M. F. Schulman auction as lot 201. (Apparently, as a part of the H. D. Gibbs Collection).

The catalog description is - 201 Phil IV 1621-65--1659 Pillars---CSPD. NE--------------(Plate) EXF (30.00)

It sold for $36.00.


Bill
Edited by BillSnyder
04/06/2012 3:03 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2012  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting that these 3 examples consist of a milled (round) Segovia issue, plus 2 Royal strike cobs.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2013  04:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was browsing the ANS files and came across this piece... remembered this thread so I'd figure I'd post for posterity:

http://numismatics.org/collection/1991.78.128

1663 Potosi 8R (genuine) with what's believed to be a fake NE counterstamp. Interesting backstory provided with the listing:

On April 19, 1994, Kenneth Bressett said in a letter to John Kleeberg: "I have known about that particular piece for years. It was sold by Chicago coin dealer Ruth Green to Earl Brown in 1956. Earl was also from Chicago. He showed me the piece on a couple of occasions around 1960. As I recall he also had another specimen. Earl must have died in 1961 or 1962. Then his friend Glenn Smedley attempted to sell this and other of his coins. I know that Smedley offered this particular piece for sale c. 1963. I think that I can read the name Smedley on the bottom of the envelope you copied. I have no knowledge of when or where James Nestor obtained this piece...unless it came directly from Smedley."

Pillar of the Community
778 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2013  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, realeswatcher.


Ken Bressert also wrote, at length, about the NE counterstamp in the February 1994 Colonial Newsletter.

His final paragraph says -
"A lengthy report with my findings about the NE countermarked pieces will soon be published. At that time it may even be feasible to speculate on which early American coin dealer was responsible for perpetrating this hoax. Until final conclusions are possible I for one will continue to regard these pieces as modern fakes, but will keep an open mind to the possibility of another judgement".


I have not seen his "lengthy report".


Bill
Pillar of the Community
778 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2014  10:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I would like to contact Kenneth Bressett to discuss my counterstamped 1617 Segovia piece. (He perhaps being the only authority who feels it is a fake).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Bressett
says he was born in 1928, so, is he still active?


Thanks,
Bill

P.S. - I failed to mention that the coin came to me by way of Richard Picker, who did not know its history.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2014  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its like the GW circular punch ... you are in my territory now ... its a worthless later fake punch ... worthless meaning post regal, non-referenced, fantasy, non-regal, contemporary counterfeit, falsa, or falso ... any of these synonyms would work ... sorry Bill ... I am ... you are a top end collector ... but you should rid yourself of this piece on E-Bay ... I will keep my mouth shut ... <VVBG>.

John Lorenzo
United States
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2014  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Give it the ultimate test Bill ... send it to my friend Vicken at Stacks/Bowers ... tell them John Lorenzo says its 100% legitimate ... really ... DO THIS ... we await his resposnse <VVBG>. He is VP of the auction dept. area and a colonial aficionado ... not in my league ... but not bad for his age and his 24/7 position ... <VVBG>.
Valued Member
Spain
110 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2014  06:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moneditis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely super Segovia 8 reales!!
Pillar of the Community
United States
3450 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2014  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are there any Spanish coins with this counterstamp that are dated after Hull's demise ... post-1683? Are there non-Spanish coins with this counterstamp? Are there any other denominations, besides 8 Reales, that exhibit this counterstamp? Is it not conceivable that Hull weighed and applied a trial stamp to show some samples; perhaps; even mentioning same in some of his writings?

Barring evidence to the contrary, I cannot dismiss in my mind the possibility that these are legit. With all due respect for ColonialJohn's numismatic knowledge and expertise, I'd not be too quick to let go of it. The speculative nature of this piece is fascinating, methinks.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3450 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2014  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hull was authorized to stamp "NE" on Spanish coins. Interestingly, the counterstamp on this specimen is on the side opposite the denomination ... hence, no need to stamp a denomination. I'm not saying that this is Hull's issue, mind you, yet ... most interesting to contemplate!
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