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What Is "Rare"

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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2013  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the current generation I think theyre stuck in their ways but in the coming years more people will be into slabs imo since theyll have grown up with them. Common coins modern or ancient generally arent so I would agree that common ancients wont be, but even a year ago you never saw any in slabs now theyre everywhere. The grading on them is definitely different as well, seems more simplistic which I think is good for them though theyll probably complicate it over time. I have an unslabbed Roman coin myself, but if I ever spent a lot of money on one especially a silver or gold Id want it slabbed for authentication.

Id bet a poll would screw heavily anti just from the older demographics from the site. I definitely understand not changing to it after doing without your whole life as well. But with the next and younger generation having almost always knowing slabs if not always I bet in the under 30 group youd see a completely different opinion which will probably be more heavily skewed in every generation after.

You guys definitely have much better digging opportunities than here, we have some civil war battle fields ect but even then the potential finds are pretty limited to what they could be but I love anything involved in the civil war so thats fine by me.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7723 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2013  1:52 pm  Show Profile   Check oih82w8's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add oih82w8 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would you consider "condition" a factor? I do not have any "rare" or even "scarce" coins in my collection, but I do have a few that are "primo" for their grade such as "one finer" (I have one of those 45) according to PCGS;

MS63RD - 1

MS64RD - 16

MS65RD - 53

MS66RD - 45 *

MS67RD - 1

...but then when you consider how many there are extent through PCGS (116 in MSRD, and who knows how many of these were resubmitted to obtain a higher grade?) it may not be considered rare. It depends on which side of the coin you are looking at.
oih82w8 = "Oh I Hate To Wait"
"I tell her coins keep me off the streets and out of the bars." Moe145
"WOO-SAA...WOo-SAa...Woo-Saa" (calm down)
"An individual who vacillates when there is need of action will find themself beyond the hope of future success."

My Virtual 7070 https://www.PCGS.com/SetRegistry/ty...album/142105
Edited by oih82w8
05/09/2013 1:57 pm
Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2013  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oih assuming a few were resubmits would be safe to say. Either way it shows a low number of higher available.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2357 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2013  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That was part of the earlier posts - is grade just an artificial form of rarity. Having a coin that is minimally better preserved than another doesn't make the coin rarer - just the desirability of the coin changes for the group of people to whom that matters.

Basebal - I do agree that things change over time and probably coins will be a complete anathema to the young generation in 200 years time when they pay for everything with a chip in their forehead :) I guess the only thing to be careful about is buying the slab and not the coin. From discussions I've seen TPG companies are nowhere proficient in detecting forgeries for ancients yet - though I'm sure they will get better.
Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2013  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bacchus - they do make mistakes for sure they are human and you could find a bunch of them, but with the number of coins they do those mistakes are few and far between. There is a segment that always think they know better than the TPGs when theyve never had the coin in hand, that said I dont know much about how good NGC is with the ancients though I assume theyre competent and wouldnt do it if they were clueless. To me itll be interesting to see if PCGS ever gets into that game or decides its more trouble than its worth.

I dont think collecting is in danger of going away anytime in the future, I just think it will change in terms of slabs ect.

As far as if a grade is a real rarity I would say yes. If you have two apples and one is covered in dirt and the other clean theyre both apples but one is desirable while the other isn't. Kind of the same idea for coins. The coin itself may be the same but just because its the same it doesn't make them equals
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
775 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2013  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There have been a few discussions about slabbing on UK forums. While there's no one view, there are a number of issues. Firstly, US TPGCs are only really expert at US coins. There have been a number of fairly major mis-attributions of UK coins, sometimes to the advantage of the buyer. Sometimes not.

Secondly US grading doesn't translate exactly to UK style grades. And as has been said before, pure grade is not the whole picture in what makes one coin more desirable than another.

Thirdly, we seem to be more concerned about edges! And while the newer capsules are better, it's still difficult to assess edge damage. Heck, with the older 'ring' types I find it difficult to work out the shape of some hammered coins!

Fourthy, storage and handling. Slabs take up space. And there are still quite a few collectors in the UK who use coin cabinets and like me, who like to get their coins out to inspect close up. I figure after 350 years a bit more handling is unlikely to cause much damage!

And finally, I personally think that learning to assess your coins is part of the hobby. So while TP graded coins are maybe useful for buying unseen or for investors, I think it would be better if people learned the art themselves. Particularly if, again like me, you buy by 'eye appeal' more than strict grade. For me a grade tells me little and I'm the only one that can decide whether I can live with a coin or not.

A few of my coins out of the cabinet but still in their drawer:


Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2357 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2013  08:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If I ever spent a lot of money on one especially a silver or gold Id want it slabbed for authentication



Quote:
There is a segment that always think they know better than the TPGs when theyve never had the coin in hand


Alas NGC are not confident enough to guarantee authentication so I'm afraid buying a slab won't protect you on this. And there's the rub - to check for yourself you need to have it in hand. This is why all the ancients collectors I know wouldn't go near a slabbed ancient. (Best not mention all the fake slabs that have been coming out of China since 2008 either :) )

But this thread is not about slabs.

That's a fantastic tray of Charles shillings. My personal preference is that type of display. Do you use "roundles" under the coin? I'm sure you know them all off individually anyway but some old cabinet coins I've bought had them included - handwritten in a very fine Indian ink..
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
775 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's a fantastic tray of Charles shillings. My personal preference is that type of display. Do you use "roundles" under the coin? I'm sure you know them all off individually anyway but some old cabinet coins I've bought had them included - handwritten in a very fine Indian ink..


Thank you! By "roundles" I presume you mean what I call 'tickets'? Yes, I write my own though they are perhaps a bit out of fashion now. And here are some that came with one of my coins (both sides of the four shown). A nice way to show provenance and certainly they add interest to a coin, if not value.



If ever you are interested by the way, there's an article about such items in the British Numismatic Journal: http://www.britnumsoc.org/publicati...NJ_71_13.pdf

Primarily the British hammered series, but obviously some collectors like Platt Hall or dealers such as Baldwin will also have handled and written tickets for ancient coins.

It's not a perfect way to find out whose hands a coin may have passed through, but ...

Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2357 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes - that's the ones. 20+ years ago I worked in the numismatic section of a local museum and remember that nearly all the cabineted coins had tickets (we called them roundels) handwritten in a very dark blue ink. A lot were written by a Mr Seaby (brother of the famous author) so they are in and of themselves part of the numismatic history. And rather fascinating to study in their own right too.

I was lucky enough to buy a sizable portion of a Dublin coin dealers inventory when he passed away and a lot of those coins had similar tickets/roundels which I've kept. They really add a personal link to the coins themselves.

I don't think many places sell them any more however I would like to add them to the coins in my own cabinet that don't have any - I'll probably have to make them.


If you are interested - page 7 of this thread shows some

http://goccf.com/t/79943

Edited by Bacchus2
05/12/2013 11:32 am
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
775 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2013  12:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cool Thalers! I know Prinz make white tickets: http://prinz.co.uk/acid-free-white-...bj7uvg5m9c65

But as mine is a small collection, I make my own! I cut them to half crown size which is about right for hammered shillings and my trays.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2013  08:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I need a better way of storing my stuff. Too many ancients, not enough room.

Speaking of rare, the other day I received two rare ancients coins. I bought the lot for £10 (you can see the post on the ancient forum) - in it was 1 rare coin (thats 26-50 known) - which still means pretty common in ancients terms as the unknown ones probably total up to 500 - but there was also an R5 (Unique - so its now downgraded to R4) - which means that, feasibly, there man be a population of 2-4 of these coins.

Usually, R5 means nothing - the variety. A dot in the field from Siscia mint could be an R5 but if you wanted the design, youd have no problem getting it. BUT! This one is rare. Crispus didnt issue SOLI INVICTO COMITI regularly - the design, from this emperor, ranged from R2-R4 for the 16 varieties, with most being an R5. Almost all from London mint. Sure, you could get a SOLI INVICTO COMITI for a couple of quid, but getting a crispus is a hard task. Less than 100 known for Crispus when RIC surveyed the major collections compared - whilst there are 2135 varieties for this legend in this format totally perhaps a million coins in major collections. Theres nearly another 1000 varieties with different designs but the same legend - none for crispus.

However, its still worth diddly squat. Literally irreplacable and it would sell for maybe £2 on eBay (unless I found a persont rying to make a SOLI set).
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