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Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2018  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1c5d7n5m Nice counterfeit.

The issue of debased coins is an interesting facet of the general subject of "counterfeiting" because it falls under the umbrella of potential fraud. The critical issue in my opinion was whether or not the general public was aware of the "tax". If the government simply shorted the silver in the alloy without informing the people that would be fraud and the coins are a type of authorized counterfeit. However, if the alteration was made public it is a simple change of alloy.

I view the intent behind the issue as a key element in classifying coins as counterfeit.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1012 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2018  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Swamperbob!

For the Spanish authorities in the Netherlands, this was certainly a criminal act, the ones responsible risking death penalty as punishment. It is well known that in the previous years the Duke of Alva (the iron duke) restored order in the Netherlands (1567-1571), followed by heavy taxes which triggered the second revolt (1572-1575). For the Dutch rebels, minting the first coins of the rebel movement (starting late 1575 with type 1a leeuwendaalders) was one of the first official acts on the road to an independent new state. I guess (perhaps wrongly) that minting the first US dollars has some similarities to the first Leeuwendaalders.

Apart from the 10% taxation by a face value of 31 stuivers for a metal value of 28, the die design (sloppy at start, but clear in its intention) is 100% revolutionary
on the obverse we see the clown-like figure instead of the king and read MOneta NOva Argentea ORDnum HOLlandiae (new silver coin of the States of Holland). On the reverse CONfidens DoMiNo NON MOVETUR (a bit equivalent to: In God We Trust)

The counterfeited piece clearly has more copper, and seems made by casting, probably using an uncirculated original to make the molds. Most original type 1b coins have weak strikes in the center and the survivors lack detail in the face of the enigmatic figure on the obverse. The presence of detail from this piece raised my interest. It was auctioned by a respected auctioneer as a genuine type 1b, and I was unaware of the idea until this year when reading about counterfeits on CCF.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2018  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1c5d7n5m Your copper struck counterfeit is obviously a contemporary circulating type made without authority by someone outside the mint. I was not referring to that type in my comments.

I was asking about the statement you made:

Quote:
The States of Holland urgently needed to raise taxes to support the revolt against Spain in a close to desperate phase. The resolution of 25 august 1575 of the States of Holland approved the coinage of a large silver piece with face value of 32 stuivers in which silver content was only 29 stuivers.

The way I read that statement was that the type 1b leeuwendaalder was actually an authorized issue (with government approval) that was made short on silver content compared to stated value. My question was perhaps not clear. Did the general public actually know the coin was debased? The intent is different if the government authorized the debased issue without letting the public know. I questioned whether the public was aware of the change - otherwise how did the government profit. In the 16th century silver coins traded at intrinsic value outside of the country of origin. The debased coinage (if everyone knew) would trade at a higher face value only where the government could force the populace to accept the coinage.

There were at times secret modifications of the silver standard in coins that allowed the government to profit (via fraud) but most of these cases were noticed as soon as the coins were assayed by a foreign mint or exchange. That is the point where the debased coins circulated while the full weight coins hit the melting pot for silver content. As they say "Bad money drives out good".

Riddell in his 1845 book referred to the fraudulent debasement simply using the term "Debased". He distinguished mint made debased coins from counterfeits made outside the mint. I do the same.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1012 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2018  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You ask a good question: whether or not the general public knew the financial intention of the new coin and difference between metal value and face value. I presume yes, because precisely for the reason of a high face value versus metal content, the lion dollar was later selected by the Dutch merchants for international trade with the Baltic and with the Levant.

Perhaps I should add something that happened three years earlier (at the start of the second revolt, during the period Alva campaigned in Holland, sieging cities like Haarlem, Leiden and Almaar). The rebels then levied a 10% tax on circulating gold and silver counterstamping
- obligation to hand in 11 original coins
- receipt of 10 counterstamped coins

Below is the obverse of an example of a Bourgondische kruisdaalder 1568 (90% silver) from Antwerp, Brabant counterstamped by the States of Holland in 1572; this was "presented" to the public as a loan, but the debt was never repaid.



My interpretation (which can be mistaken) is that while the taxes of the iron duke in 1571 were considered by the public as harsh and unfair, triggering the second Dutch revolt, the 10% taxation of the leeuwendaalder was known by the people from Holland and accepted as serving the good cause.

The counterfeiter, on the other hand, in secret further eroded the silver content of a then common and popular coin.

Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2018  10:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That sounds right given the earlier forced tax. That would make the coins all GENUINE (they were a fiat form of coin that would not have passed outside the local jurisdiction) with the exception of the copper counterfeit you posted which is a Class 1 Circulating Contemporary Counterfeit.

The complexity of coinage is one reason why I love collecting. You learn about history and monetary schemes. It is also the reason why specialization is necessary to become expert in any one area.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1012 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2018  06:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The complexity of coinage is one reason why I love collecting. You learn about history and monetary schemes. It is also the reason why specialization is necessary to become expert in any one area.


Very true swamperbob !

It is a joy to dig into the particular story of a coin and learn about the circumstances of its production, its role for some time as fiat currency and its removal from the official market. This process requires some understanding of the historical and economic context, also of the technology available and the persons responsible for its production. Another level of understanding is the story of the survivor which distinguishes a genuine coin from a numismatic fraud. This digging indeed requires expertise, specialization and a lot of patience.



Pillar of the Community
United States
2052 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2018  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
History is one of the main reasons I collect French coinage. The literature of Balzac, Hugo and Zola associates with the coins. Le Colonel Chabert (Napoleon), Les Miserables (Charles X and Louis Philippe), Boule de Suif (Louis Napoleon - Americans are more familiar with its transformation into the movie Stagecoach).

Handling one of those heavily worn Revolutionary 10 centimes evokes the troubled times. Hugo's Thenardiers "sell" Cosette to Jean Valjean for a princely 1500 francs. His gold Napoleons mesmerize them...the same way they mesmerize me...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thénardiers
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
12/26/2018 12:48 pm
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1012 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2018  3:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
les Thenardiers

how well would they have fitted into the "métier des
contrefacteurs"
Pillar of the Community
United States
972 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2020  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Check CalzoneManiac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CalzoneManiac to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bumping this thread, I may have a contemporary counterfeit Italian 5 lira coin.
Currently interested in buying 1957 and earlier Russian and Soviet coins. Let me know if you have any and we can hook up a deal!
Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2020  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CalzoneManiac I would love to see pictures of that coin because Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits of most 5 Lira types are nearly non-existent. There are however, numerous Numismatic Forgeries of these same coins which are of very limited value. Most are recently made pressure castings in white metal which are faithful to the original designs.

You should also include an accurate weight for the coin.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1795 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2020  06:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pertinax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
France 1st Republic, 1 Decime Yr7 (1799)cast forgery in brass (from page 1)


I've got several 1 decime specimens in yellow or yellow/brown metal.

Are you saying that all specimens in brass are forgeries ?
Life Fellow, Royal Numismatic Society

My wants list: http://goccf.com/t/283145
Pillar of the Community
United States
2052 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2020  07:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I doubt it Pertinax. The Revolutionary base metal coins used any metal at hand, and I'd expect that practice carried over to some degree. I don't know how the determination of casting was made on the forgery though.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1025 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2020  12:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's one I recently acquired. It's got a lot of deviations from genuine issues, which, in the spirit of the thread, could be considered a "worst" counterfeit. However, as a pretty close match to GNL# 1781-O: Ba/R: Mo FF-002, I would call it a "best" counterfeit.



Pillar of the Community
United States
972 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2020  03:05 am  Show Profile   Check CalzoneManiac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CalzoneManiac to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Swamperbob It was a 1930 5 lira coin, KM67 https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces4047.html

Unfortunately, I cannot provide pictures at the moment as I have misplaced the coin.
Currently interested in buying 1957 and earlier Russian and Soviet coins. Let me know if you have any and we can hook up a deal!
Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2020  3:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CalzoneManiac

That particular 5 Lira coin is one of the coins I would expect to be a Numismatic Forgery and not a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit. If you locate the coin, I would still be interested in seeing it. A CCC version would definitely be a "good counterfeit".

Because the series was issued immediately prior to the drop in world silver prices it is also possible that a contemporary counterfeit of that era could have been made using 0.835 fine silver.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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