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5 Oz 2012 Farewell To The Penny Has File Mark Type Scratches

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Valued Member
JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2014  2:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I completed my set of ALL 2012 Canadian pennies with the purchase of a 5 oz. silver penny. I wasn't sure if it was really a necessary part of a complete collection, but my OCD nature wouldn't let me rest without it, so I found a fairly good price on ebay.

It arrived with all the mint packaging, case, COA and box, so I think it's all kosher. What concerns me is that there is an area of scratches that look like sanding or file marks, all in one direction across the rim of the coin. It isn't enough that someone would have been trying to remove silver and they are mostly pretty light. They almost look like the coin was machine flattened and there are extremely fine similar lines, then some are not so light and a few are pretty noticeable.

Any thoughts, experiences or feedback on this. I suspect this might be more or less normal, given the size of the coin, and I am extremely happy with it otherwise, and will probably be just as happy one day years from now when it is finally paid for (smile). I don't have the lighting or microscope to take a decent photo, but I've included one that does show some of the deeper and a few of the less noticeable scratches.



Thanks,

Jim



5-Oz-2012-Farewell-To-The-Penny-Has-File-Mark-Type-Scratches
Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2014  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So this hockey puck was shipped out of the plastic coin holder
Valued Member
JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2014  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ha, I called the hockey puck when I bought it!

It was shipped in all the mint packaging, including the plastic holder.
Valued Member
JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2014  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm hitting "submit reply" too quick. The scratches aren't noticeable in the plastic holder. I saw the scratches when I opened it up to inspect it. For the photo, I opened it up, but didn't remove the coin from the bottom half of the plastic holder, so the scratches are only on the coin's rim and then you can see the plastic ring around the coin.
Valued Member
maddog's Avatar
Canada
190 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2014  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maddog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After reading what you wrote I had to check the two coins that I have.
Neiher one of my coins show any signs of scratches, nicks or any other type of wear/ damage.

Just a guess that someone took it out of the protective plastic to look
at it and dropped it which may have caused the scratches. Cannot see this coin passing inspection at the Mint, so I am guessing it was caused aftermarket.
Valued Member
JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/25/2014  02:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me it doesn't look dropped / nicked. It looks more like a flattening process that wasn't finished properly. I could be wrong of course, hence asking here. I don't know what the process for creating the rims are at the RCM, and these rims are very wide. I suspect I have a coin with a pretty bad value problem. It took me a while to look at it out of the plastic, it was won on ebay on 5/4/14 and delivered 5/12/14. I haven't left feedback yet. I'm waffling over making an issue of it. The scratches don't show in the photos and aren't mentioned in the description, and I'm thinking for $600, this should pretty much be a perfect specimen.

Opinions?
Valued Member
maddog's Avatar
Canada
190 Posts
 Posted 05/25/2014  04:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maddog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am assuming of course that these coins were inspected thouroghly
before being packaged and shipped by the RCM. Especially at the price they were issued at. I would ask the seller if he knew that the coin had scrathes on it or does he have a return policy.

Sorry, but that coin should be perfect coming from the mint, especially since it did have a low mintage.

Best wishes
New Member
Canada
26 Posts
 Posted 05/25/2014  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prevalent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A few of my coins purchased directly from RCM had slight scratches like this on the rims of coins, so these scratches do sometimes pass inspection at the mint. Again, it was only noticeable after removing the capsule so I haven't inspected many coins, but of the very few I did, I noticed these scratches too. Of course, I cannot tell if yours is a much worse situation based on the picture.

Would it be possible they could be caused by sliding around in the capsule?
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pocket change 50's Avatar
Canada
1751 Posts
 Posted 05/25/2014  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pocket change 50 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You could return to seller, under the not as described option. Under this option the seller has to refund your money. I think under the new scoring system of defects, it may count as a defect. I would discuss with seller first the possibility of return or discount, prior to filing a case. Remember to choose other or a case will open.
Valued Member
JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  01:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't believe that sliding in the capsule caused the scratches for the following reasons. They are long strokes and don't have an arc to them. The capsule is much to small in diameter to do that. Also, the worst ones look like a coarse file was run across the coin, so they are much deeper than incidental scratching. Also, plastic would be very unlikely to scratch a metal like silver, and if it did, I can't believe deep scratching would occur.

There was some dirt on the coin when I opened it, and the "dot" of glue had already been broken. I opened it easily with my thumbnail. There was even a hair on the coin. That doesn't mean the seller abused it though.

Thanks for mentioning that some "contact the seller" options open cases and lock his account. I have done that innocently and well-intentioned in the past with a couple of the options, so now I always use the "other" selection. I am a big believer that most sellers are honest and will work to resolve issues honestly. It also really handcuffs everyone in the process as the seller can't conduct business and it can take time to work out a solution. ebay would be well served to note the ramifications of certain selections; one of my pet peeves.

All of your help is appreciated more than I can adequately say. I don't want to make a big deal if it isn't, so I look for others as a sanity check to ensure that I'm not over-reacting.

Since the value of this very high priced coin is entirely rooted in mintage and condition, and I don't believe the melt value will ever begin to approach what I paid, the price should fairly represent what it can sell for given its condition.
Valued Member
Canada
373 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add taro-chan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
" Cannot see this coin passing inspection at the Mint, so I am guessing it was caused aftermarket."
I just wanted to say, I have seen way worse coins passing inspection at the RCM. It may have happened during production.

With that, I have seen about 10 of these 2012 5oz and none of them had this. There were some that showed pitting
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JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had kind of a nasty message from the seller saying that taking two weeks from deliver is too long and it's my problem, and that coin holders should never be opened, so that is also my fault. Of course the RCM says they make them open-able saying it enhances your enjoyment to be able to look directly at the coin without the lens in the way, which it really does. Of course I know to be very careful. He accused me of dropping or doing something to damage it myself, and if I was complaining about nicks and dents I could see it could happen, but the scratches are like it was rubbed on an abrasive surface, with some areas worse than others.

So, I just examined it again, under really good LED lighting. I saw something I hadn't noticed before. A glint of light caught my eye, and looking close, just inside and below the rim, by the worst of the scratches, there is a "burnished" mirror bright silver area about 2 mm. wide that runs for 1-2 cm. It seriously looks like someone ran a burnisher around the inside of the rim, and this coins field looks much more like a specimen than a proof, and it's more of a raggedy silver shine than a polished proof shine. He swears he didn't open it, though I found what looked like a lot of pollen and a couple small hairs inside. There is also a slightly discolored area in the indented "crotch" area of the top of the maple leaf.

I am confounded over this. I've also sent him this new information and tried to be very reasonable and approach it in a problem solving way, and I hope that tempers his hostility. I also stated that many people would certainly open the coin to verify its condition being that it is so expensive and that his statement that it's irresponsible to open coins is not founded in fact or good practice.

Opinions? BTW, you have already been extremely helpful. Could this be a mint problem? And if it is a mint problem, is this a problem coin that has less numismatic value?
Valued Member
Canada
373 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2014  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add taro-chan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is possible that it still could be a mint issue but its difficult to tell.

The scratch marks you initially posted could be caused when they used a file to open the capsule and hair and dust certainly sounds like it could have been opened. But the mint fab floor, its not a dust free environment either.

Also, I have seen only a few RCM coins at the boutique that has little black particles in the capsule.

What is the discoloration and that 2mm mark? Those sounds more concerning then the dust.
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JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2014  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That mark concerns me most too. I know that random particles will settle on anything open to the air, even briefly, and they will just brush off with a clean, gentle brush, or an air bulb squeeze. I have no real problem with that. It's just that he claimed they shouldn't be opened ever and that he didn't open it. The tiny glue spot was definitely already cracked when I received it. Of course I can't prove that. I'm sure I can prove that the mint encourages people to open lenses and capsules to better enjoy viewing their coins.

The 2-3 mm mark by 1-2 cm. looks like a hard-edged tool, maybe a screwdriver or something similar, was drawn hard around the rim. It follows the rim for the entire "run" of its damage. I has a wavy look like hand pressure might do. I can't get a decent photo of it. I'm thinking of taking it to a local coin shop to see if they can analyze and/or photograph it.

The seller has stopped communicating and has been fairly obnoxious about accusing me of doing something to the coin.
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SPP-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
10456 Posts
 Posted 05/28/2014  12:27 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the 5 oz silver coins (and larger) the rim marks are typical, and probably unavoidable, as the coin is removed from the press. As long as the fields and devices are clean on the surface of the coin, then it will pass the RCM quality control. Mine also has similar rim marks, and it really does not bother me.
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1026 Posts
 Posted 05/28/2014  08:58 am  Show Profile   Check omxfl's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add omxfl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When purchasing on ebay it's always good to ask the seller for actual pictures of the coin(s) you are interested in. In case what you received does not match what the seller has shown in his/her pictures, then you are covered. If there is any damage to the coin the seller did not disclose in the listing, then again, you are covered. If the seller is unreasonable, then open a case. You can do that regardless if the seller offers returns or not.
I've been on both sides of this and learned my lesson as a seller. But even if you describe everything correctly and multiple times and having high resolution photos or scans of the exact coin you are selling, you may still encounter some moron who just bids without reading the item description carefully and examining the pictures... In that case you're still out of luck as a seller.
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