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Canadian Blacksmith Coppers - Inquiry

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2014  11:04 am Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
As part of the new book in 2016 the Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies - Revisited the first chapter I am working on will be these Blacksmiths. If you have information that you feel is additional or contrary to Charlton please feel free to E-Mail me personally. I will give you some examples:

1. Wood 14 is known with additional end-bow configuations I have called these W14-a,b,c,d, etc.
2. There has been no verification (EVER) on a confirmed XRF Wood 15 in copper.
3. Wood 33 is not a Blacksmith but further evidence recently by CNL-ANS indicates it also does not fit nicely as an Atkins/Cobwright Evasion Copper - EITHER! Its currently in LIMBO. What does VTS mean?
4. Wood 36 is an XRF confirmed GII era fantasy brass cast and NEEDS to be delisted.
5. W42 is already selisted.
6. W29 comes in variations of W29-a,b,c & d. To be explained in book.
7. W35-onward are open to various interpretations as being English/Canadian.

Give me your other anomalies, concerns, inquires, additions in 2015. Will post this monthly for six months.

John Lorenzo
Numismtist
United States
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2014  1:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dialog_gvf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rarely do we get much talk on here about tokens, and certainly not from someone who is researching for a book. I look forward to it.


Quote:

Wood 33 is not a Blacksmith but further evidence recently by CNL-ANS indicates it also does not fit nicely as an Atkins/Cobwright Evasion Copper - EITHER! Its currently in LIMBO.


I thought it was a Bungtown. I never understood why this specific one was listed as Canada/North America.


Quote:
What does VTS mean?


What does that mean? :)

You don't mean VIS do you? As in the deliberately garbled legend "GLORIOVS III. VIS".


Quote:

Give me your other anomalies, concerns, inquires, additions in 2015.


I have been wondering about this one for some time:



The reverse looks like a Charlton LC-48A4, but the wreath on the obverse is not listed for any halfpenny. It looks like the obverse of the LC-47G penny.

The 1812 is the only indicator I have this may be an unlisted variety, rather than some British token.

Is the date "1812" a solid indicator of backdating to avoid the import laws into Canada/North America, or did it occur elsewhere?

As for other inquiries:

Were tokens circulating much in the USA after 1776 (or whenever they started minting their own coinage)?

How will you deal with the lack of a coherent ID system (at least for Canada) outside Charlton?


Pillar of the Community
United States
795 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2014  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The photo is of a imitation Tiffin token.
Charlton lists as a LC-48B1. This is Dr.
Courteau variety 19, having an r factor of 1.

doug
Pillar of the Community
United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2014  08:17 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Were tokens circulating much in the USA after 1776 (or whenever they started minting their own coinage)?

JPL: Not so much tokens but research suggest at least half the currency was contemporary counterfeits say of English & Irish halfpence and foreign money. In Canada between 1820-1840 the saqme scenario with these Blackmsiths (i.e., no small denomination currency around so they found their place - quite easily in the early economy of Canada).

How will you deal with the lack of a coherent ID system (at least for Canada) outside Charlton?

In the book I will use my own collection and just review W1-46. Charlton includes others - I may or may not address these high rarities. I will discuss the BL-15's or Blacksmsith Pennies. George Fuld and Barry Tayman years ago were going to do a book on Blacksmiths but it never came to be ... there is much information in this Blacksmith Yahoo Chat Room Jim Spilman and I started years ago I will extraxt some information from these data. Wayne Jacobs in the past has come out with some interesting ideas that were never published.

You don't mean VIS do you? As in the deliberately garbled legend "GLORIOVS III. VIS".

This Evasion W-33 or currently deleted Blacksmith due to its very high population (I personally have seen >500 different examples) has several die varieities which means there exist DIFFERENT legends. We have verified alternate legends such as VTS instead of VIS and BRTIT instead of BITIT. No doubt. See the current paper published by ANS in the Colonial Newsletter which treats this matter VERY WELL! Thanks Oliver Hoover !

To subscribe to the Blackmsith Chat Room ask to join here:

blacksmithtokens-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To subscribe to the Blackmsith Tokens data repository (no chat feature):

blacksmith-2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Its levels above the lean and elementary information projected in Charlton and their Colonial Coins Token Book in terms of information - I should now - I built it <BG>. Don't get me wrong Charlton is great to view all the current known pieces - I am talking about history and previous researchers THOUGHTS on these issues. I will move alot of this information to Forgotten - Revisted.



John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
11/13/2014 08:22 am
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1046 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2018  2:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add torgemco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
is this allowable..i`ve just bought one down around f12 for research.just wondering.
tia
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1812-CANADA...100033.m2042
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1484 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2018  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
See the GNL book on the ability to buy counterfeit coins on the market today.
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1046 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2018  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add torgemco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks colonialjohn
this is the one I purchased
should I begin a new thread..?
tia


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United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2018  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is not a contemporary circulating counterfeit. Its a Tiffin Token. A Mr. Tiffin ordered these to be made in England to ship to Canada for his customers as he was a merchant needing small change capability with his customers during this early period in Lower/Upper Canada in 1812. They come in Penny and Halfpenny denominations. No worries ... JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
01/16/2018 5:25 pm
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1484 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2018  09:29 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some Blacksmiths as I mention in my new book "Forgotten Coins" may have had the same origins as the Tiffins and may have been imported into Canada in and around the 1820-1840 period. XRF assays of these pieces strongly suggest this alternate possibility.
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 Posted 01/21/2018  7:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add torgemco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks very much coloialjohn
i hope your book..is most successful
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 Posted 01/22/2018  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its doing well in Canada since it has a lot of new information for Canadian Blacksmith Coppers and will help bidders in the upcoming April Heritage Sale of the Robbins Collection.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2018  08:30 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pay Particular attention to these Blacksmith Pennies or BL-15's in Robins. Did these circulate in Lower/Upper Canada? IMO they did but did they indirectly come from Irish Circulation to Canada or were they always meant for Canada. We see double reverses (Ringo Stacks CG March March 2009 Coin Galleries Sale), two cast specimens (see Forgotten), 1817 dated pieces (Ringo Stacks CG March 2009 Sale & Forgotten) and other very strange peculiarities with this type. There are only about 12-16 George III 1/2d's in cast known - fast forward 50 years wee know see TWO BL-15 types dated 1822 in CAST ! JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
02/07/2018 08:32 am
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1046 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2018  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add torgemco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks once again..
colonialjohn

Valued Member
Canada
266 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2018  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andy888 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
colonaljohn thank you so much for this thread and the info. Most of all thank you for your contributions to this wonderful hobby. I cant wait to check out your book!
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 Posted 02/22/2018  8:43 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As the Robins Collection approaches in April 2018 at Heritage in Chiaco there have been many inquires. I sell a CD on eBay and the Kindle and Softbound is also available at Amazon. Heritage has been sent complimentary copies of Forgotten Coins and its helping Haxby with the cataloging - particualrly on the BL-15's ... well ... a little anyway as he is competent enough in this area. Should be a great sale in April.

ENJOY!
Edited by colonialjohn
02/22/2018 8:50 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2018  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I noticed the BL-15's are up at Heritage for Robins and they are very crude and IMO strongly Canadian issues either by import from England or the U.S. or struck locally. These are not as well made as the SNJ British Museum Dolley group - obviously.
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