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1827 Russian Ruble - Authentic Or Not?

 
 
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United States
2323 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2015  6:20 pm Show Profile   Check Paul Bulgerin's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Paul Bulgerin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I came across this 1827 Russian Ruble on eBay, but couldn't find anything to match it in my copy of Krause's "Standard Catalog of World Coins".

Is it real or some fantasy piece?

Thanks for any answers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1827-Russia...MEJhXfg%253D
Paul Bulgerin
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Australia
3151 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2015  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This "coin" is based on a pattern of Nikolai I coin which never saw it into circulation.

Obviously if this was real, it would be worth a lot more than what it was sold for.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries

My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month.
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 Posted 04/18/2015  12:34 am  Show Profile   Check Paul Bulgerin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Paul Bulgerin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information.
Paul Bulgerin
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United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  12:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Paul Bulgerin If you are interested in Russain coins - you need to watch the auctions that are posted containing the word "novodel" - that way you can keep up to date on the bad fakes that will soon appear as genuine on eBay.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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Australia
3151 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The basic meaning of "novodel" is restrike by the mint however it's the sellers that attempt to use the word for the wrong purpose which sends out the wrong message.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries

My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month.
Valued Member
United States
460 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add plonker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Goodness, the seller has loads of fakes.
Valued Member
United States
370 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2015  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jack316 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not a scholar concerning fakes/counterfeits/copies. The most glaring fakes are not that hard for me to spot. Coins of 16th or 17th century that are selling at auction for $20 or less and all have the same dull look with wear that is obviously included to fool a potential buyer, I can spot. But, lately, I'm noticing a lot of old Russian coins that are called NOVODEL coins. I've researched NOVODELs so I know what they are supposed to be, I've also read your posts about Sellers using the term nefariously to try and "fool" buyers. My question is, Should someone like myself simply avoid auction listings of NOVODEL coins? It sounds like a slippery slope for the uninformed. PS- What do the letters N-O-V-O-D-E-L stand for? Thanks, Jack
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 Posted 09/05/2015  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susuman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is the Russian word which literally translates as 'remake.'

edit - I tried posting the word in Russian, but it seems that Cyrillic characters will not reproduce here.
Edited by Susuman
09/05/2015 4:57 pm
Valued Member
United States
370 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2015  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jack316 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Susuman. I appreciate the info. So, then, if the term NOVODEL is actually a Russian word, then are you saying that coins from other countries are not referred to as NOVODELs? Is it a term appropriate only for Russian Mint re-strikes, or is it used throughout the hobby? Jack
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44 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2015  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zypronix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The design is from a pattern but the date should be 1825, the same goes for the novodel version.
There is a Russian catalog called KOHPOC that has a whole section devoted to "novodels" (30+ pages), a good investment if you collect pre 1900 Russian coinage.
Nether a official strike, PN or novodel = fantasy
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Australia
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 Posted 09/05/2015  8:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In short, a novodel is a restrike. However it may not necessarily be a faithful restrike as there maybe some modifications such as different edging. As always, buy the book before buying anything else.I highly recommend Uzdenikov.

If you think such genuine restrikes are cheap, you will be terribly mistaken. Other than the Soviet ruble novodel and the 1902 37.5ruble - 100 franc novodel, these coins were essential struck for collectors who were willing to pay extra. This practice was put to a halt in early 1800s as it was deemed to be harmful to collectors by a n enthusiastic collector. (Just cannot remember his name atm). Essentially many of such novodel belong to high end collectors who had money to spare. These will not come cheap.

In short, if you don't know what you are buying, seek advice and be prepared to buy decent catalog.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries

My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month.
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United States
568 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2015  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susuman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So, then, if the term NOVODEL is actually a Russian word, then are you saying that coins from other countries are not referred to as NOVODELs? Is it a term appropriate only for Russian Mint re-strikes, or is it used throughout the hobby?


Jack, I do not know if Novodel is used for coins of other countries or how it may be used with respect to Russian coins or in the hobby. I only recognized a Russian meaning in the word and confirmed the translation. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on any broader usage of the term.
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United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2015  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The term "novodel" when used correctly has a far different meaning than counterfeit or forgery. A true novodel was made in the mint and was sanctioned as a collector coin. They were technically not restrikes since the novodels were usually struck from newly prepared dies not the original dies. I have seen the term used in connection with the US 1804 Silver Dollar because it fits numismatically. The 1804 dollar was made at a later date with newly prepared dies and was sanctioned for sale.

Like the 1804 Dollar the typical Novodel was a limited issue. They are usually rare and are accepted for grading by TPGs.

Now the problem occurs when the term is used incorrectly. On a daily basis auctions are posted on eBay which use the word novodel in place of Numismatic Forgery. A Numismatic Forgery is a coin made to deceive coin collectors - it is a fraud.

Every once in a VERY great while a novodel appears on eBay that is a true novodel - these are normally TPG encapsulated. Quite frankly I would NEVER buy a novodel without a TPG guarantee.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
370 Posts
 Posted 09/06/2015  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jack316 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
'Nuff said. Thanks for all the input. I have come to the conclusion that NOVODEL coins are not for me. They will either be (A) too expensive, or (B) not authentic. I understand that the authentic NOVODEL coins would be special, and probably (by my standards) too expensive. The tip about only trusting those that are TPG is a great idea.

Sussuman - As I understand it, Stomperbob's reference concerning the 1804 US Dollar suggests the term can be used for Mint authorized re-strikes in populations other than just Russian coins. Jack
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United States
233 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2015  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PatAR to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As is the way with language, a word may have a definition while also having one or more connotations.

Drawing upon my understanding of the term's use and my interpretation of Richard Doty's excellent Encyclopedic Dictionary of Numismatics and Uzdenikov's discussion of novodels in Russian Coins 1700-1917, I offer the following:

By definition a novodel is a Russian coin that fits any of three categories:

1) a coin struck from new dies to produce an imitation of a coin that did previously exist, but is no longer readily available

2) a coin struck from new dies to produce coins which did not previously exist (such coins also fit the definition of fantasy coin, but in the context of certain Russian issues the term novodel is often used by custom)

3) a coin struck at a later date from the the same dies used to strike the original coins (such coins also fit the definition of restrike, but in the context of certain Russian issues the term novodel is often used by custom)

One connotation of the term refers to one or a group of non-Russian coins which similarly fit the descriptions listed above. Certain U.S. Mint products of the 1800's are a good example.

Yet another connotation I have encountered is for only those coins fitting the description in clause 1 above. The separate terms fantasy and restrike are then applied to coins fitting those other descriptions.

In all of this, context is key.

With that said, I agree with other posters that use of the term to describe modern forgeries is not acceptable.
Valued Member
United States
370 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2015  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jack316 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PatAR - Thanks for that TON of info. I appreciate that you took time to clear up the term for us. After reading your most excellent post, my decision to avoid NOVODEL coins has been reinforced. I say again, not an area for the novice, untrained, uninformed, or anyone whose first name begins with a "J" and ends in "K." Jack
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