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 Replies: 61 / Views: 12,828 |
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Valued Member
China
106 Posts |
I looked into this kind of 8 reales cut,but I can't find out where these cut coin circulation for? Is Cribbean area or Eruope mainland? Can anyone figure out these kind of cutting coin from which location? Look for information in details.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5328 Posts |
nicolashsing There was no location that used cut 8Rs of this shape that I am aware of.
If I saw these three together - I would presume they were forgeries. They are essentially the same condition - were cut in the same general way and have toned in the same fashion.
I would like to see the edges to be sure - the surviving colonial edge and the cut edges as well.
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Valued Member
Topic StarterChina
106 Posts |
Thanks to swamperbob! I am wondering this kind of 8 reales cut coins have collecting value or not?
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
562 Posts |
I am sorry to raise the red flag against Swamperbob's opinion, but these three do not look like forgeries to me. These coins seem old and authentic (as coins) to me. The cutting seems to be old too. The fact that they are three does not mean, that they are fake. The toning and vendigris are the same because they were probably found in one place and were therefore under the same environmental conditions. They have a value and are of course collectable, but possibly below the value of uncut pieces (another reason why they are definitely original). *** Edited by Staff - Please review the rules that you agreed to when you registered. ***Edited by coinworldtv
01/11/2016 05:46 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1146 Posts |
nicolashsing, please show photographs of the edges.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1639 Posts |
The cutting of these pieces do not fit any West Indies scheme I have ever seen or of a value (1/4,1/2,cut etc.) but nevertheless could be of the period by examining the third side as previously mentioned. The pictures do suggest silver plating or peeling? ... but it could be photography? To me no more than curiosity pieces to be approached with CAUTION. IMO.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
How much does each one weigh?
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Valued Member
Topic StarterChina
106 Posts |
I have bought from a french seller,the coins still not arrived,when they arrives I'll upload the edge and identified the weight. I've purchased 5 lots of this kind,pls see image. 1   2   3   4   5   |
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
562 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1639 Posts |
Its possible. Consider the pistareens found in U.S. hoard discoveries as this issue is next in my CCC list. Anyway - with U.S. hoard finds approximately 40-50% of all specimens unearthed (according to Kays/ANS paper) were clipped in halves and quarters. CW - I still remain nervous due to the the irregular host shaped patterns. Maybe they were just clipped for their silver? However - consider - I have seen this before - notice on some the large amount of green oxidation. You have to ask yourself ONE question - would ~5% copper in the alloy leach out this much green oxidation? Seen this before ... a high probability therefore these are all debased Ag issues whether modern forgeries or 19th-early 20thC. Just an observation. Regal issues very rarely shed copper oxidation at this observed level for generic regal (legitimate Mint issue)90-92% Ag alloy compositions.
JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
01/12/2016 10:50 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5328 Posts |
There are now 15 very similar items that are heretofore unknown as a distinct type. There is no evidence thus far what they are. In my first post I said I would presume they were forgeries. That is a safe starting position in my opinion, until more evidence like the edges is produced.
I think it is more dangerous to presume the coins are genuine than to presume they are not.
So far - no one has indicated a reason for cutting genuine coins into this shape. Based on area - each is over 1/2 of an 8R. The smaller pieces cut away would be of various shapes and weights and I see nothing that matches this situation.
The coins are likely all from the same source. They may have been a hoard buried in 1790 or they may have come from the same forger's shop in the last few months. Thus far there is no way to tell which view is correct.
Apparent age of the coins or the shear lines is able to be duplicated by competent forgers so I usually do not believe that kind of evidence without other corroborating facts like weight and density.
This group still sounds suspicious to me and I would suspect that the coins are forgeries until they are determined to be genuine. I would also advise that paying over melt value for such a find is unwise until they are studied scientifically.
To start I would suggest specific gravity as a way to see if the coins are at least real silver.
The coins appear to show genuine design elements so they could be genuine coins or they could be copies of genuine coins.
The verdegris could be due to the coins being counterfeit or it could be due to genuine coins being buried along with a copper coin that corroded.
I don't think that from these photographs alone that we can tell exactly what these are.
SG, edge pictures and even weights might be able to shed some light on what we have.
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Valued Member
Topic StarterChina
106 Posts |
To colonialjohn Pls see this image, China 1 yuan produced between AD1914-1949 89%silver.Buried for reservation.   |
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Valued Member
Topic StarterChina
106 Posts |
I am wondering if these 8 reales cut was for privately for french west indies.Not offcially issued,but was cut by merchants for compensation of the lack of minor changes.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5328 Posts |
If 8 reales were cut for such a purpose I would think someone would have seen them before now and would have reported about them.
The vast majority of brand new finds of this type turn out to be forgeries. Where did these coins come from?
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Moderator
 United States
28422 Posts |
Beyond the good points raised by swamperbob, colonialjohn, and others, it seems unusual to me that all of these pieces were cut in a way that preserves the portrait. It is almost like whoever made these wanted to keep that device intact rather than sub-divide the coin using a method which would permit easy determination of the value of the aliquots. As far as I know, this runs completely counter to all other times in history when coins have been divided in order to make small change.
Of course, shaving the edge of a coin in order to remove small amounts of gold or silver while preserving the overall value of the coin has been performed for centuries. However, every example of that trimming that I have seen has been more or less consistent around the edge, rather than big chunks as with these "coins".
Until more information is supplied, I say fake.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
As was pointed out in the listings, they apparently were procured from Oran.
More often, it is late Potosi cobs (1750s-70s) that you see cut down to this weight standard, which seems to be in the 15-16 gram range. I've seen Sedwick and a few others state (presumably interpreting from experience) that they seem to have been cut down to some (North) African standard... Often, sellers who handle a piece here or there and presume (incorrectly) that they were 8R cut "in half" to make 4R... or sometimes they guess 4R planchets struck with 8R dies. However, the clipping style is rather obvious and distinct - clean, straight cuts - so when you see that combined with 15-16 gram weight, which is really too heavy to be a half-cut, it is a decent assumption that it is one of this type.
In line with these pieces, many that I have noticed seem to come from French sellers (which would make sense as a pipeline for N. African material)... some out of Spain, have probably seen a few out of Germany, Italy, and here also. Again, it is mostly Potosi cobs cut to this weight that I have come across, but I recall seeing similar cut portrait 8R at least once before. I would assume they were done by the same entity/locality, somewhere around 1800. The Oran reference is a useful hint - the most specific clue I've seen.
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Replies: 61 / Views: 12,828 |
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Posted 01/11/2016 03:36 am
