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Chinese Kirin Province 'Flower Pot' Silver Coin..... 1898?

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New Member

Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  4:50 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Greetings to all!

I think I know what I got but there are few and scant details out there.

1. Non magnetic (silver ping tested)
2. Nice patina
3. 26.1 grams
4. 7 Candarins 2

Can I get confirmation of the year and a ball park appraisal if possible..... Thanks a bunch!!






Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A genuine coin sells for a large difference. They could be around $100 or so in lower grades, then in the $200 to $400 range and even higher in better grades.
I think the dates are around 1895-1899 or so.
Actually there are more than scant details, but you need to have Kann and Ming.
Better and focused pictures could yield a better reply because it involves comparing your coin details to the reference books.
Edited by Albert
06/06/2017 12:10 am
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  09:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the suggestion Albert... I'll come up with better ones.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  10:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are more detailed pics.... hopefully you'll be able to see better. Thanks again!








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United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's better if the coin was flat and the camera straight on.
Images still ore not focused over the whole coin.
But yeah, the first image is much better.
I can come back to this topic later tonight.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I bit off more than I can chew on this Kirin Dollar. First impression is your coin may not be genuine. If it is, then I'm just off base. It's complicated because there is just too much info. Too many variations, perhaps dozens or more in the books, but the images both in this post and the images in the books are not so great to see and understand all the differences described in the books. It's trying, tiring and about not possible to be much help. Maybe if we had very large and crystal clear images, some of the details can be decoded to determine just what the coin is or is not.
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United States
18945 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
First impression is your coin may not be genuine.


I have the same concern--that looks like a parting line down the middle of the edge ridges.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah I'd like to get better pics around that edge. One of my fakes actually has two incoherent sides. One side is like the 1898 design, but the other is like 1895 as well as having elements found on the 1902 coin. It's like a mixed up rendition of what the fake makers may have thought the real coin might have been. Or else they put it together never expecting anyone would realize how mixed up it is. They either didn't know, or if they did know, then they passed it along anyway.
Much larger and clearer images would help in the topic. Maybe point out some smoking guns or maybe not.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, I'll try to get clearer pics...... but perhaps the only redeeming point is that it is made of silver!

Pictures will come later today. Thanks again to all who have given their opinions.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was it the ping and or weight you used to determine the coin is silver? Or were there any other methods? Is the coin 38.75mm diameter and 2.25mm thick? I have fakes that ping and weigh correctly. Please excuse my questions, I could tell if it is genuine if I had it in my hands, but it's harder to tell in an online forum.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK.... here are more pics. I apologize for the lack of resolution but this is as good as it gets ATM.

@Albert.... I have a good feeling about this coin because of everything I have previously mentioned but also because I had purchased this coin from a reputable dealer and he swears on a stack it's an original. It is 38.7mm wide and about 2.1mm thick as best as I can tell. I am in the process of getting the Precious Metals Verifiyer so I'll know for sure then.

But based on what I have read.... there are several varieties of this type and even more from other provinces. The date is not found on the coin which makes it harder to track. The Chinese characters seem to pass muster.... I had someone read it for me to make sure. If this coin is fake I'm probably gonna loose all faith!





Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you can post pics similar to these (flat and straight on), then I can compare your coin to books and probably get better info. Basically, what I would do is see if there are any conflicts among the details. The coin I am showing has plenty and it is a known fake in my collection of Chinese fakes. Identifying small details can help get the year right.



New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  01:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert,

after looking at the pics you have posted, I have made several observations.

1. The English 'N', 'S' and '2' are too perfectly casted and pronounced. Same with the Mandarin letters on the reverse.
2. The Northern Chinese Manchurian writing is also too big for the coin in terms of space ratio.
3. The dots on top of the flower pot are too round. You basket stand is also different.

Don't feel too bad.... I have several Nikolai Roubles that were made the same way by the Chinese factories! Right now my only solace is that my coin is made of silver....... I was concerned with the spikes on the Dragon's tail. Some have 7 fins and others have 9. If you continue with the clouds, claws and fire ball..... you've got a headache that really isn't worth the pleasure of collecting the coin! I guess I'll know for sure once my metal verifier gets here. Thanks again for your thoughts.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Mongol words, rosettes, clouds, flaming ball, vase, flower petals, berries, dragon tail, and rows of scales all have seemingly endless variations and a large number of them are described in Kann. That's why I was wanting pictures of your coin posted in the same way mine was. I might be able to tell what year and what variety you have.
My coin is 30% low weight and not silver. English reverse is similar to Kann-512 and the Chinese obverse is similar to Kann-280. My dragon tail should have 7 spines instead of 9. The vase and flower are found on the 1895 coin. The spelling CAINDARINS is found on coins of 1902 and later. The number of rows of scales match the 1898 coin, but in that year, the vase and plant were different. So mine is a fabrication made up of assorted details found on different coins but not found on one single coin. I study and collect Chinese fakes and have documented hundreds of them.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Albert,

I had no idea you have devoted so much time into this type of coin. I am glad for your time and opinion regardless. I only came across this piece without the desire to collect Chinese coins, I focus mainly on Russian coins(which has been copied by the Chinese too). But since the opportunity presented itself I dove into it.

Like I said..... the only thing giving me hope is that it is silver. I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to duplicate a coin in silver but they are more into mass productions so unless they were going to spend all that time and money on the die casting to just make a few... but who knows.

Here are enhanced pics..... forgive the crudeness of the quality. Hopefully this helps.



Pillar of the Community
United States
1144 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not enough clarity for me to tell. It looks like one of the 1898 varieties, but not sure if Kann-283 or one of the 284s or 285s.
I guess someone will just have to look at it with special attention to the rows of scales, flames and clouds.
If you could find someone that as Kann, then you could read each variety line by line and match the details with Kann's written description.
Edited by Albert
06/08/2017 6:37 pm
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