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1733 Mexico 8 reales Mo-MF information wanted  
 

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New Member

United Kingdom
7 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2017  10:27 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi, I am new to the forum looking for information on a 8 reales, year 1733 with MF MO marks. I am considering buying this coin from a friend but it appears to be 5mm bigger in diameter than any other 8 real that I have seen. Where 1733 real coins lager than other years? I have not got a photo yet but will post when I do, any information would be most helpful, best regards.
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2017  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scstrawn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since these coins were not struck on "normal" planchets, the size is going to vary, with many looking squarish with many design element missing. Size is not a very good factor, but the weight should be pretty consistent (0.916 silver would be really close to 27g). I think a picture would be a good help here, since people love to fake reales.
Edited by scstrawn
10/10/2017 3:12 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  06:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the reply, please find photos of coin below, along with two others I would like information on. Best regards





Edited by Spence83
10/10/2017 06:46 am
Valued Member
United States
343 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scstrawn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, so it looks like the first one is milled (which is an entirely different kind of coin) and the others are cobs. The milled one, if authentic, would be worth $700-3000, depending on condition. I'm not convinced on authenticity (the surfaces look strange to me) and I would rather know for sure that what I had was the real thing before spending anywhere near that kind of money. See if you can get the seller to send it in for authentication/grading, and if it comes back genuine, you can reimburse the grading cost if you buy it.

With the cobs, these are a bit trickier for me anyway. The first has that same surface that makes me think of cast reproductions, and the second is pretty worn or a weak strike, like where the date is. I would think there is enough metal above it that there should be some remnant of the rest of the date and outer ring.
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United States
1117 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2017  12:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I saw 1733, I chuckled and was wondering how bad of a replica we were going to see. Such is typically the case with rare dates.

As it happens... it appears this is genuine wreck material. #2 (the two-year "klippe" type) and #3 (cob) look fine. The 1733 pillar 8R actually looks OK as well...

Are these supposed to have come from any particular wreck? (I have one in mind... I want to hear what you say first).

Quote:
I am considering buying this coin from a friend but it appears to be 5mm bigger in diameter than any other 8 real that I have seen. Where 1733 real coins lager than other years?

I'm going to chalk this observation up to... you really don't know these at all (quite the entry-level purchase), as the dimensions on the 1733 pillar 8R look perfectly fine there's any anomalous diameter here.

What is the diameter of that piece... and what do you think they're SUPPOSED to be?
New Member
United Kingdom
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 Posted 10/11/2017  04:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information, yes indeed they are said to come from a shipwreck, coins from the Hollandia site in the Scilly isles recovered in the 1970,s. He has around twenty coins dating from 1618 to 1736 but no certification?
The 1733 8 reales, diameter is visually bigger than the other 8 reales coins he has, around 5mm difference across the coin.
I’m surprised at the price for the 1733 coin as he is looking around £200 a coin which did seem low to me.
I have see one MF MO 1733 on the coin certification site as listed as realizing $19000,
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&rct=...797281757599
I also see large crown and small crown mentioned here?
I don’t want to rob the old boy so I guess the best advise here is to send the coins for authentication and grading. Best regards
Ps will post photo of reales together when I get them
Edited by Spence83
10/11/2017 07:26 am
New Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2017  3:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coins measured, 1736 1737 1740 are around 39mm, the 1733 is around 44mm 5mm bigger. But as you say the blanks for pressing the coins in the different years may well have been the difference.
You can visibly notice at 11 o’clock on the coin between the letters G and H and again at 4 o’clock between the letters D and R the spacing is larger on the 1733.
I had thought that the presses would have made a uniform coin but reflecting on it they are handmade coins and I guess some operators pressed a little harder than others. Best regards


New Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2017  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HI,Just notice the 1733 reales coin on http://www.NGCcoin.com has differences to the other reales, the dot between the V and G is higher than the dot above the MF. On all the other reales the dot is lower and the end of V lines up between the MF? Best,
Edited by Spence83
10/11/2017 3:54 pm
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United States
1117 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2017  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FYI, yours is "small crown". Also, keep in mind that for the $19,000 piece, what they are referring is a non-wreck piece, impeccably preserved (cert. MS64). That is not comparable to this...

In terms of the diameter - I guess that's one of the 1736, 1737, or 1740 you're showing there as comparison? Clearly the 1733 is a bit larger... not sure a full 5mm, but at least a few. Be careful comparing relative spacing/detail placement on different years, in general... Each die was sunk using individual punches (letters, crown, globe/pillars, etc.), so they always vary.

The (3) examples of 1733 MoMF 8R in the Banco de Mexico coll. online all are reported as 40mm (of the four 1736, by comparison, three are 38mm and the 4th 39mm). From what I see, the piece you're showing doesn't look CRAZY large... and some variation in planchet preparation/striking within the year wouldn't be totally unknown.

Perhaps someone who knows their early-year pillars better than I could chime in... jfransch, are you around?

The size question aside, though, the piece looks genuine.

-----

Anyway, at this point, you're looking to buy something you clearly are only learning about right as we speak... so this is kind of turning into free tutelage on how/what to buy for a profit. Good luck with your research.
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 Posted 10/11/2017  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PS - you noted "1618" as the early end of the range. If one or several are that old (or there's a specific reference to that date)... it's almost certainly not Hollandia wreck. 1618 is in fact the approximate date ascribed to the "Rill Cove" wreck, also a UK find, which a produced a decent amount of material and seemingly was mostly sold within the UK (as that's where most of it still comes out of).

And note... if there are certainly TWO separate wrecks this group is pedigreed to... there could be one or a few more.

A pet peeve of mine is when shipwreck material/pedigree gets mixed up... as it distorts a collector's sense of what's what. These jumps from owner to owner for groupings like this are where that happens (esp. with you Brits as most aren't terribly familiar with Spanish coinage, despite the large amount of material from UK-waters wrecks).
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 Posted 10/11/2017  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
45mm is too large for Mexico City milled 8 reales. Given that there is a forgery in the mix I would be very suspicious about all of these coins. The 1733 has been subjected to artificial environmental damage to make it look like it is shipwreck salvage. The klippe has a similar surface treatment, so beware.

IMO, modern counterfeiting of 8 reales has gotten so good that it is a mistake to judge authenticity by photographs alone.
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United Kingdom
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 Posted 10/12/2017  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information, guess that’s pretty much it if I pay £3000 for 22 coins will they be worth more in future years. I am sure you guys buy and sell all the time and you are the experts. All coins are genuine. Best regard








Edited by Spence83
10/12/2017 07:16 am
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 Posted 10/12/2017  10:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How did you get from the sensible comment of:

Quote:
I don’t want to rob the old boy so I guess the best advise here is to send the coins for authentication and grading.

to:

Quote:
All coins are genuine.

?

If you want to know how much you could sell them for, take the lot to a coin dealer and ask what they would pay.
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 Posted 10/12/2017  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jgenn, obviously he's being a bit cagey because he's buying to resell... But, c'mon, take them to a dealer? A) Why are they going to devote their time for free to this if they're not getting anything, and B) you realize some of them may possibly in fact lie if they think they can get in on the deal, yes? Now perhaps some nice/honest dealers will provide some guidance/thoughts... but if dummies like me waste their time evaluating things for him, why not, right?! :->

That said, seeing the other pieces, I'm going jump back in to correct an oversight in what I said above. In going on about the earlier dates, "1618" may mean Rill Cove wreck, etc... I was only thinking about the Reales coinage and forgetting about the ducatons from this wreck, of which there were plenty. A large chunk were Dutch "silver rider" type from 1742; some earlier riders were also found, plus Spanish Netherlands (essentially Belgium) portrait types of varying years.

Overall, leaving aside the 1733 pillar... what is shown is typical, genuine wreck material with a very Hollandia-wreck look. I will specifically note that this includes the 1733 Klippe.

As far as the 1733 MoMF pillar 8R... the additional pic does show that it IS certainly a large diameter. Not quite as large as the ducaton shown in that pic, but a good bit bigger than the 1736 pair. Again, the Banco de Mexico examples list 40mm for all (3) specimens - is that exactly accurate? I haven't handled enough 1732/33 pillars to know if there can be that much variance. I DO know there was a lot of die tinkering in those first years... and looking through Sedwick archives, more than a few 1733 specimens (of differing die permutations) are called "broad flan" (no specific diameter mentioned). See this piece for example - full denticles all the way around:

http://www.icollector.com/Mexico-Ci...GC_i17425545

By relative dimension of detail and the rims, this looks rather large also:
http://www.icollector.com/Mexico-Ci...re_i23425060

That first piece in particular has to be close to the diameter of this piece... and also a little out of round like our example in question seems to be.

The one thing that throws me a bit on this piece is the weird denticles around 12 o'clock pillars side. Strange-looking... though perhaps they were recut after a mount was removed. The rest of the pillars-side rim is a bit odd in general... but acceptable.

If this 1733 is fake, a lot of effort went into it.

Edited by realeswatcher
10/12/2017 2:27 pm
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 Posted 10/12/2017  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher, I will check my Gilboy regarding the possibility of 45mm flans but consider this, the extra space would appear as extra wide dentils unless you believe these extra large flans also had extra large dies to go with them. To me it's much more likely that the forger made the counterfeit larger in order to get the weight close to normal.
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United Kingdom
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 Posted 10/12/2017  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reason I know the coins are genuine, I’ve seen the photos and film of them from the time they were recovered. But that does not put a value on them.
But plenty of dealers on eBay and prices so no need to go to a dealer and since you have all been kind enough to provide some good advice, I have decided that £3000 is to dear a price to pay, as eBay prices for the same coins with certs would make a cheaper way to start coin collecting.
I also now realize that coin collecting is a bit of a mine field even if a coin has a cert it still may be fake, so I’m not stepping in there. I will leave that to the men who know what they are working with.
Thanks for all the help and your time, Best regards Spencer
Edited by Spence83
10/13/2017 08:33 am
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