Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Coin Dealer - Proper Business Dealing?

Next Page | Last 15 Replies
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 34 / Views: 2,086Next Topic
Page: of 3
Valued Member

United States
366 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  7:53 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add twistedt to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
(if this is not in the correct forum,please move to correct forum)

Hello all,
we are having a discussion in another forum about a coin dealer. Here is the situation as it was explained to us. just wanted to hear from some others in the coin community about how this person should proceed. It was not me involved as dealer or seller nor do I personally know the dealer or seller.

Person A recently inherited a coin collection as the result of an estate settlement. He did some basic research to educate himself on the collection, and last Fall he took several of the coins to a local dealer to thin out the collection.

At that time, the dealer purchased several of the coins he brought in, and made Person A an offer of $2200 for an 1893-S Morgan that he also had brought in that day. Mind you the dealer took his time and looked over all the coins Person A had, including the Morgan, before making him any offers. Person A was very honest and up front that this collection was an inheritance, and he knew nothing about the coins, and that Person A trusted the opinion of the dealer to also be fair an honest. The dealer advised Person A that if Person A didn't want to sell the Morgan, that he should send it in for grading (the dealer had concerns that it might have been cleaned). Person A sold the dealer several coins that day, but did not sell the Morgan at that time.

A few months later in mid-December, Person A decided that he was ready to part with the Morgan. He never did explore getting it graded. He went back to the same dealer, who remembered him from before. The dealer took his time looking over the Morgan again, doing his due diligence. The dealer said the offer of $2200 still stood, so Person A sold the dealer the coin.

Fast forward to a week ago, where Person A received a letter in the mail from the dealer. The dealer had written to let him know that he sent the Morgan to PCGS for grading, and they had determined it has an altered mint mark and "is therefore nearly worthless." The dealer is "hoping Person A do the right thing and return the $2200."

Person A doesn't think he has any legal obligation to reverse the sale, but is looking for opinions.

What do you guys think of this situation?
is the dealer proper in asking for money back?
is the seller required to pay the dealer back?
Rest in Peace
10197 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ethically or legally. Two modes. If there was no contract or written return policy on the receipt then LEGALLY there is no binding obligation. If no receipt/contract then dealer sure didn't cover his rear. The seller isn't legally bound to return the money, but may be held liable if it went to court. Now ETHICALLY, the transaction was done as stated by being upfront as seller and buyer. Therefore this transaction should be resolved amicably and the money returned.

The dealer's mistake was in accepting the uncertified coin against his first thought of being slabbed by the seller, that should have happened. Because it didn't, and you did not mention a predication upon certification with the sale, then dealer stands to lose and is stuck with a bum coin. Dealer made no stipulation as "upon certification" and closed deal (contract) at that point accepting all further responsibility. Seller should ETHICALLY, "morally" do the right thing and return the money but is not required LEGALLY to do so.

Personally sounds like seller is trying hard to assuage his conscience, so he can keep his money.
Edited by Crazyb0
02/06/2018 8:44 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
8715 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
2528 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Check BigSilver's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great question.
My gut reaction is as follows:
It depends on the grade of the coin.
Why? Because if the coin was a high grade and worth $4k or more, then the dealer bought it as a $2,200 gamble. If I put $2,200 on a roulette table, and lose, the casino does not have a moral obligation to return my money.
If, however, the dealer paid a fair price with leaving a little room for profit, then one may feel that the dealer was more doing a favor for the seller.
Just my gut.
Valued Member
Canada
488 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob Levi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a tough one. I'd be inclined to do the right thing but the dealer would have to prove its the original coin and didn't do the ol switcheroo.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3801 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Joe2007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This coin dealer is trying to have it both ways; he wants the upside of buying the coin very cheaply and hoping it grades high but now after getting burned wants the novice seller to bail him out. Sounds like he already built the "risk" into the price so in my opinion the seller doesn't owe him anything morally since the dealer was an "expert" and should have known the risk. I'm not an attorney so I'll pass on the legal aspects of this. I strongly urge you to ignore any further communications with this dealer and have no future transactions with them, a good and ethical dealer would eat their mistake and would not dare to write a letter of this sort since it reflects very poorly on them. Ask yourself if the coin graded higher than expected would the average dealer split the windfall with the seller? Very doubtful.
Edited by Joe2007
02/06/2018 8:42 pm
Valued Member
United States
266 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nautilator to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Of course Person A doesn't have any legal obligation to reverse the transaction, in my totally non-legal opinion.

But I do have to say, the emphasis on Person A being honest, upfront, and trusting doesn't jive too well with not feeling legally obligated to reverse the transaction. That's having it both ways right there. If the dealer was doing things like suggesting certification, it doesn't sound like the dealer was attempting anything unscrupulous here.
Edited by nautilator
02/06/2018 8:47 pm
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
674 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add loonielewy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not to be harsh, but, what ever happened to "buyer beware"? I had to learn the hard way.
"We are poor little lambs...who have lost our way...Baa...Baa...Baa"

In memory of those members who left us too soon...
In memory of Tootallious March 31, 1964 to April 15, 2020
In memory of crazyb0 July 27 2020. RIP.
Valued Member
United States
366 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twistedt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks for the responses so far guys.
we are about as split on the other forum as we seem to be here lol

luckily as I said - I was not involved as either dealer or seller.

hope to get some more responses on this.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3801 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Joe2007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It would be different if the sale was conditional of the coin grading but the dealer did not include that language into the sale agreement. On the other forum a member wrote out a pertinent summation of my feelings on this subject:


Quote:
Like they say, do unto others as they have done unto you. If you think the offer was fair for a real coin, then I think that you should give him his money back. Not because you have to, but because it's the right thing to do. If the offer was obnoxiously low, the dealer should get what he deserves, i.e., nothing.


On the other forum the OP stated that he thought the coin was roughly XF. Numismedia values the 1893-S in XF-40 at over $9,000. So I think the intent of the dealer to rip off the novice seller was very clear and the dealer deserves his loss.
Edited by Joe2007
02/06/2018 9:00 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
898 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add duncanbishop24 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The dealer is the one with the experience. The dealer is trying to guarantee the best of both worlds. The dealer is the one who accepts the risk on a purchase.

The dealer is the one who messed up.
Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paxbrit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm presuming the seller is entirely innocent and aboveboard in all of this.

Having said that, the dealer is a professional and is responsible for what he buys. The minute he lays out his money and purchases a coin for resale, he is responsible for it's authenticity and grade, before and after the sale. He made a 'lowball' offer for a $3500 coin in Fine condition. Higher grades are worth even more, up to and over $100,000. He may very well have been hoping for a VF grade, or even better, and much profit thereby. I'm certainly not going to accuse him of any dishonesty, but he inspected the coin on two occaisions and had every opportunity to work with the seller to have it graded and buy it on that basis.

Now I see in a post above the coin was about in XF grade, or a $9,000 coin. A $2200 offer is hardly a fair offer for a sought-after coin with a guaranteed marketability.

There is a very valid reason why certified and graded coins and currency are popular, they protect both the buyer and the seller, both side of the transaction.

The seller has no obligation to return the money, or any part of it. No court would award a claim against him by the dealer. Unless he represented the coin as a genuine 1893-S Morgan, which I'm not seeing that he did, he's under no ethical cloud, either.
Edited by paxbrit
02/06/2018 9:13 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1260 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chesterb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree with paxbrit. It sounds like the dealer needs to use the returned money to educate himself/herself. Seriously, the dealer had two opportunities to view the coin. In this day and age with the amount of information available, they should have done better due diligence and if they weren't 100% sure then they should have offered to send it in before purchasing it.

IMO, the dealer blew it and in making the purchase is taking a risk and their offer should reflect that. What if the tables were turned and it turned out to be real and in better grade than the offer reflected? Would the dealer have extended a check to the seller for the difference? The seller should feel no moral obligation to return the money.
Valued Member
Taiwan
192 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Guybrush to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Personally I agree with Joe2007's first comment in this thread.

The dealer was willing to take the risk of buying it unslabbed.

Furthermore, he bought it unconditionally,
so the burden is on his side.

Additionally, the dealer took time to look at the coin, more than once. It's not like he only saw the pictures of the coin on the internet and then getting ripped off.

Bob Levi pointed a good problem -- that it may be difficult to prove that the coin wasn't switched.

Since the seller has no obligations to refund the dealer, so it's up to him whether to return it or not. And no obligations means that it's rather inappropriate of the dealer to ask a refund, he should've just informed the seller and allow him to do what he want.

Even I say this, I think everyone's agument here is correct on their own way. Tough problem
Edited by Guybrush
02/06/2018 9:35 pm
Valued Member
United States
366 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  9:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twistedt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
it is a rather tough situation.
there has been a lot of good info passed on.

i can see both sides of the situation - thanks to some of the posts.

but I am inclined to believe that the seller has no obligation to repay the money.
Edited by twistedt
02/06/2018 9:43 pm
Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2018  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Legally it'll depend on the area the transaction occurred in.

Ethically he has no obligation if the facts really as as stated. The dealer tried to rip him off with a low ball offer and got caught. The dealer was able to examine the coin for extended periods on multiple occasions. The dealer is supposed to know what they're doing and those Morgan's aren't even very hard to confirm.

It's weird the buyer didn't grade it first but is what it is. There's no way for the seller to know it's the same coin and it's not like he would have gotten a call saying hey I owe you several thousand more because it graded well.

This is all contingent on the facts he's preaenting on the other forum being accurate. As long as he genuinely didn't know and just let the dealer make his own decisions he did nothing wrong the dealer just messed up and needs to eat his mistake just like all the customers have to thaf trust a dealers grading to much.
Page: of 3 Previous TopicReplies: 34 / Views: 2,086Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2020 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.98 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05