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Found Another Strange Issue With Frederick Douglass Quarter

 
 
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United States
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 Posted 03/08/2018  12:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have been getting quite a few of the ATB Quarters and came across this which I have not seen before. It is with the Frederick Douglass quaeter, in particular the last two S's in his name. There are what appears to be the tips of two smaller reverse S's sticking out from the bottom of the bend in both the larger S's. Has anyone seen this before and if so what is it caused by. Thanks in advance.


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 Posted 03/08/2018  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Machine Doubling. Please take a look at this thread that Coop made. It will help you a ton. http://goccf.com/t/294649

Here's what Coop said.


Quote:
On the ATB Quarters the reverse outer devices on the ring are incuse. (sunk into the coin) The die have raised devices that strike these into the coin. When the slightest machine movement happens it alters the devices. Sometimes making them larger that normal. Some think these are doubled dies. But they are just machine movement that causes these. So I've been wondering how often out of 100 random coins will we find this MD on this area? Here are my figures:
28% normal struck
72% MD (Letters larger on one end or the other)
58% of the MD has the devices outside of the normal design area. Here is what the ones that are outside of the normal area look like. They can be above or to the either side to qualify as this. One device or several.

So a very large percentage of these quarters are affected. If you would like to save 100 of the ATB Quarters in your area, you could help add more information for this thread. Just 100 random ATB Quarters (not in OBW rolls) and see how many normal ones you find out of 100. How many are MD? I will be looking for your results.

I was surprised that 72 percent were affected by MD.
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
1973 D Lincoln Memorial cent With Recurring Die Subsidence Error Information. http://goccf.com/t/304624
Machine Doubling tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
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 Posted 03/08/2018  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know the coin has MD. Like he's said virtually all of the new quarters have some measure of MD. As a matter of fact it seems like the ones without MD are way more rare to the point that I've only come across a very few that have almost no MD and I think maybe only one or two out of 100 that have virtually none so I totally agree with his figures. The pictures you sent the link to show those kinds of examples which this coin obviously has but I was referring to the last two S's and the smaller, what look like reverse S's sticking out from the left of the lower part of the bigger S's. I didn't see an example of that in those pictures. I understand how MD happens and that doesn't explain how this occurred or else they would be in the same direction shadowing the larger letters. Unless I'm just missing something
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 Posted 03/08/2018  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's Machine Doubling, like E&V said.

Look towards the bottom of this page:
http://doubleddie.com/144822.html
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 Posted 03/08/2018  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's MD ( Machine Doubling)
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 Posted 03/08/2018  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dennman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't see how MD resulted in those protrusion on the two Ss.It seems to also have one on the L.If they resembled part of the affected letters then sure but that doesn't seem as a likely cause with these.
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 Posted 03/08/2018  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to be clear, we are talking about these areas correct?


And if so is there a reason why all the other examples of MD give the appearance of doubling and on the incused makes them appear thicker and on these they are the opposite shape of the letter? Trying to learn all I can.
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 Posted 03/08/2018  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you dennman. I'm new to this so I don't have room to really question the more experienced but the examples everyone keeps giving me of MD which I'm very familiar with after thinking I found a million doubled dies early on in this journey, don't show any examples that remotely resemble this. I've looked through a ton of the new quarters and like I said earlier they almost all have MD but they all five the appearance of a thicker letter. These protrude out perpendicular to the letters almost as if the were put on top if smaller letters that we're reversed. ( Just using that as an example)
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 Posted 03/08/2018  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scurry64 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've never seen MD like this before. MD is usually the correct answer to the question "Does my coin have a double (sic) die?" But I don't see how a loose die would have created these marks. It looks more like a die gouge.
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 Posted 03/08/2018  2:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The are also incuse marks, but not from a die, but from coin damage from contact with other coins.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Valued Member
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2018  3:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The mark that looks the same on the L is in fact a gouge. I looked back at it again cause I thought maybe I missed that somehow but it just happens to look similar. The two marks on the S's however are not gouges. It would be easier to explain away to me or PMD if it was doubled in the same exact spot on each S. I would love to find out what could have caused this.
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 Posted 07/19/2019  03:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FounditYorN to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't suppose it could be brush marks.?trails? So you think it's marks that happened after strike? I'm in refresh mode after a certain age it seems to much info to process then retain. I'm constantly in 1 of my 5 maybe 6 coin books..
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 Posted 07/19/2019  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure what you think it might be besides "the tips of two smaller reverse S's sticking out". Are you thinking double die or double strike maybe? MD? contact marks? Or someone at the mint carefully placing 2 small reverse s tips under the double S's on the die? Is there anything elsewhere on the reverse that might suggest it was double struck or something, maybe by a capped die struck it first then they restruck it a 2nd time to try and wipe it out?

The lettering is incused, but the shadowing makes them look raised. What you are seeing could easily be minor scratches or lower points reflecting light differently. The lighting could be causing a trick of light, like how the letters look raised to me although I know they aren't.
I do know that 100x magnification makes everything seem to be bigger than it actually is, if you blow up a pen dot big enough you could probable see the shape of an animal or a letter out of it also. One overall picture of the reverse of the coin may help, but may not, the extreme close up helps to point out what your seeing, but joke aside, it blows it out of proportion.

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 Posted 07/19/2019  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These are fairly common on the ATB Quarters. I was always under the impression that it was caused by the coin making accidental contact with the die a second time after being struck, probably during ejection from the striking chamber. So maybe ejection doubling is a more precise way to describe this than Machine Doubling.
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