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1992 LMC Unusual Bust

 
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Valued Member
United States
112 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2018  05:41 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
After checking this 92 for close AM, I took a peek at the obverse and thought Abe looked a bit skinny, or....something. So I compared him to others and the more I looked the more differences became apparent. Here's him next to another Philadelphia 92, and because their colors are so different, I also included a likewise-brown 90 P. I realize the grainy field could indicate a deteriorated die, but I don't think that could explain all the differences. The coin is also not very worn, and even a weak strike would not explain one very interesting detail, I'm wondering if anyone else sees it.








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840 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2018  06:48 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Struck through grease I think
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 Posted 11/07/2018  07:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@kawliga, in order to better compare features like this, I recommend that you create an overlay. Normally we do this to look for things like die clashes or die rotation, but I think that this would also let you determine if Abe is actually different on this coin (and if so, exactly where). I believe that a description of the overlay methodology has been the subject of a prior CCF thread. Sorry that I can't give you a link right now.
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112 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2018  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You mean like where you can see one image over another? I was wishing I could do something like that. I do think the overall silhouette is different, but there are lots of little differences too, ones that may not change the silhouette but are there, nonetheless. Like the back of collar, how the jacket stands out far from the shirt, whereas they're normally flush. But even the edge of the jacket collar is within the total outline of a normal bust--I THINK. Yeah, a way to see this overlapped with another 92 P would be very useful.
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 Posted 11/07/2018  07:29 am  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like there was a lot of die abrasion around the neck and bow tie, probably to remove a die clash.
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 Posted 11/07/2018  08:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When comparing coins, you need to use the same date mint and grade.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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United States
112 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2018  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I have the same date and same mint comparison right there, but I have no idea what their grades are. But does it really take grading to see that the underside of his chin is missing, the far side of his tie and jacket lapel are missing, his shoulder humps out, the back of his neck is missing, and the back of his jacket and shirt collars have a completely different design?
If anything, the other 1992 P in the picture is clearly a worse grade, so it should be the one with more lost features due to wear.
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 Posted 11/07/2018  10:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If anyone wants to do that image overlay thing, I would definitely appreciate it. I don't know how, have an old mac computer and probably not the software.
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 Posted 11/07/2018  10:52 am  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was caused by an Over Polished Die issue. The U.S. Mint did this, so they can remove a Die Clash off the the die. http://www.error-ref.com/thinning-a...gn-elements/
Errers and Varietys.
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
1988 P LMC RDV-006, 1998 P LMC Wide AM, and 2000 P LMC Wide AM. http://goccf.com/t/327834 http://goccf.com/t/294303 http://goccf.com/t/312900
1973 D Lincoln Memorial cent With Recurring Die Subsidence Error Information. http://goccf.com/t/304624
Machine Doubling tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
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 Posted 11/07/2018  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is caused by a overly polished die. I've seen a few where Lincoln's neck and parts of his coat were completely polished away. Same thing that causes the "floating roof" LMCs.
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How to identify cleaned coins: http://goccf.com/t/319679
Edited by SilverDollar2017
11/07/2018 11:18 am
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 Posted 11/07/2018  12:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On the coin in question,what does the reverse look like?
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 11/07/2018  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just PMed Mike.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
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 Posted 11/07/2018  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That area is part of the target area that would be polished. away, making the neck thinner because of the fields being reduced.
Richard S. Cooper
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 Posted 11/07/2018  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As others have said, Lincoln's emaciated appearance is due to overzealous intentional die abrasion.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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 Posted 11/07/2018  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ahhh. Okay that makes sense. Coop thank you SO MUCH for putting the time into that graphic. So this is a case of restoration gone wrong, like the more the fixer fixed, the more he had to fix, until he practically redesigned the whole bust. HA!!--Reminds me of:


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 Posted 11/07/2018  7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, some more thoughts and images. First, John you asked fro the reverse so here it is. Shame about the spot on the steps; I don't know what that is but I'm not trying to clean it.


Next, Skinny Abe taken from a slight angle so you can see how dramatic the "redesign" of his shirt and jacket collar is.


Here's where it looks like the artist decided not to mess with the clash too much: the shoulder sleeve creases. This would make sense. I'm an amateur artist and one thing I know is how forgiving fabric is (also hair curls by the way). You can put them anywhere and the viewer's eye will "believe" it, as long as it's not too wackadoodle. (On the left is 'normal Abe,' and on the right is 'skinny Abe').


And finally, I did play around with features I haven't tried before on my lousy image software, and found this pencil sketch effect. The removal of color and simplified lines shows the differences nicely I think.
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