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8 Reales: Any Ideas On This Coin?

 
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Valued Member
Spain
89 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  06:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add txabs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There is another one on Ebay right now. (Already bid to $300).

Maybe this is my chance to finally add one of these to my collection.


There is another way to think about it. If you see a Rolex watch, which you know that cost about $5000 on ebay selling for $200, you won't think it is authentic, it is a fake for sure.

The most common pillar dollar form Santiango mint on bad condition is over $5.000-$10.000. What make you think you can find an authentic one for $300? It is really simple to avoid a lot of fakes just by aplying common sense

There are three authentic ones on an auction next month on Cayón Subastas:

https://live.cayon.com/lots/view/1-...64-j-rarsima - 12.500€
https://live.cayon.com/lots/view/1-...65-j-rarsima - 9.000€
https://live.cayon.com/lots/view/1-...lar-muy-rara - 18.500€

Regards
Pillar of the Community
United States
964 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not only that but I understand there are no genuine pieces of this type coin with a 1752 date.
Valued Member
Spain
89 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add txabs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Under Fernando VI, in Santiago only pieces of 1751, 1753, 1755 and 1758 are shown in mint's documentation. Of them, only 55 and 58 had appeared recently on auction houses, and their prices are about 30.000€.

So no of ebay sellers has any real chance to offer an authentic one for $300, or even $3000 :(
Edited by txabs
01/26/2019 6:18 pm
Valued Member
Spain
89 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  6:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add txabs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Carlos III ones are a bit more common, but still over 10.000€ even in bad condition
Pillar of the Community
United States
964 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
However, an impulsive buyer and likely ignorant of the facts, could bid or buy one. In my case, I collect and document fakes bought on eBay, Vcoins and elsewhere. So my purchase was deliberate to add Chile to the other countries in the books.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1002 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So my purchase was deliberate to add Chile to the other countries in the books.


And are you going get a genuine one for the second part of your book?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2019  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The frauds on eBay operate successfully because of greed. This kind of fraud operates on all levels fueled by people who think they can get something for nothing or at rip-off prices. In Vietnam GI's were scammed thinking they were buying dollar sized silver coins for $1. They did not stop to think - they bit when offered a silver coin at a bargain price. The same scam happens today and the targets are tourists.

What I do not want readers to miss in this thread is that a fake can usually be identified without the authenticator being an expert in any particular type of coin as long as he/she has learned how coins in general were actually made throughout history.

The coin may have been a Santiago type (which I have never seen in person) but the same errors seen here would have disclosed any screw press coin as a fake. Country does not matter all you need to know is how originals were made to spot crap like this.

It is much more important to look for the clues to manufacture because not all fakes are of rare or non-existent dates. Many are made far better than this one here. When a common date inexpensive Mexican 8R is presented - the same clues apply.

Just today I finished a review of a small collection of 11 coins. All 11 were fakes - one actually had the word "COPY" on it but far too small to comply with the law. There were 9 different countries in the group and dates raged from the 1st century to the 1930s. Some were supposed to be silver others copper. None even if genuine was worth over $100.

It took about 2 minutes to determine all 11 were either Forgeries or counterfeits. I didn't weigh them before I knew and in 2 cases I didn't even know what the country of origin was.

So how could I be sure?

It was easy!

They were all made incorrectly.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1459 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2019  02:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
txabs, maybe I should have added a 'smiley' to my comment. Sorry about that.

The Jara/Luedeking book - Las Primeras Acunaciones de la casa de Moneda de Santiago de Chile 1749-1772, (as well as the Gilboy book) have an excellent discussion and review of all known examples. An 8 Reales for Santiago dated 1752 is not known.
Edited by GERMANICVS
01/27/2019 02:42 am
Valued Member
Spain
89 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2019  05:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add txabs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sure @GERMANICVS, I can see now you at least you have tried to find some documentation, I also use the Jara book :). It's a shame that this is not the usual procedure. The normal way is a newbie collector, who has no books in his place, and don't even know the difference between a screw press and a roller die, who find in eBay a coin which cost about $30.000 selling for $200, and buy it, thinking he is the most smart collector in the world because he just save $29.800 and now he owns a extremely rare coin which no one else has.

To finish this topic, I would like to show you a free 8 reales pillars catalogue, made by a well known spanish collector (because he is so active in forums and social network, ans Spanish market is not as big as american one), named Lanzarote. It's in Spanish, but with Google Translator I guess no one will have any problem to use it.

https://siemprenosquedaralan.wixsit...-columnarios

It has also an edges section

https://siemprenosquedarae.wixsite....nario/cantos

Regards
Pillar of the Community
United States
1376 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2019  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
txabs, GERMANICVS is still being a bit... "coy", the word would be in English.

He is an advanced collector of Chile/Santiago mint pieces.

The 1752 discussed makes a nice desk ornament/paperweight. I'll have a minor-to-moderate heartattack is a genuine Santiago pillar appears out of the wild on eBay. I did, however, snag a super-worn 1760 Bogota pillar 1R a few years back... and a fairly established seller did list an XF (!!) previously unknown example of that same type... so one never knows, I guess.
Pillar of the Community
United States
610 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2019  10:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dumb questions. If this was cast was it not cast from a "master cast coin?" If the 1752 Santiago does not exist, where did the master cast coin come from?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2019  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A master impression to make centrifugal castings can be created by carving from scratch by a competent engraver or by using a pantographic lathe or by making a transfer impression from a genuine coin. The master is then revised as need to create a fantasy date and mint combination - the elements that need to be changed can be changed on the positive itself. Replacing a mint mark or a date at this stage is very easy.

The master impression does not need to be as strong as a hub or die - it needs to be just hard enough to transfer an impression to any one of a number of plastics to make multiple sub-masters. These can be sold or passed around between forgers - used and re-usued. One well made master can produce millions of copies.

You should review information on the internet about how the process works. I started by studying how metal beads and ornaments used in my wife's hobby of beading were made. Free classes in rubber mold centrifugal vacuum casting were available as were demonstrations at a local jewelry shop.

A coin is actually not as hard to cast as some of the intricate castings used in high end jewelry. The low relief is perfect to allow flow into all parts of the mold.




My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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