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1777 MO Ff 8 Reales - Why Is Anyone Bidding?

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2019  12:05 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I noticed today that there are now 14 bids on the following coin - highest bid is over $ 82. This is a WORTHLESS piece of junk. I own one. Mine has ZERO silver. It is a centrifugal cast copy.

There are numerous errors clearly visible yet 4 people are bidding. The bidders do not seem to be novices either - too many feedbacks for that.

The US based dealer who has a brick and mortar store and is a member of NGC missed the simple fact that this coin is not silver - has the density of nickel not silver - rings at a high pitch and was clearly not made on an open sided screw press.

I find it difficult to excuse any professional dealer who can not spot these differences.

Am I being too harsh?
Would you trust such a dealer?

Here is the coin:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1777-FF-8-...303154565456


My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1626 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2019  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob
The raised rim/edge on the reverse would be enough to make me pass on this coin quickly but a question please, how can you tell the coin's composition is not silver from a photo?
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
New Member
United States
26 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2019  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ChipDehart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would venture to say its because he has seen and handled quite a few of these over the years. Its a known modern forgery. The raised rim is a dead giveaway like you said. But that protruding eyeball always gets my attention right away as well.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3218 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2019  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps the bidders are fans of M.A.S.H. and this looks like Klinger.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The question of how do I know that the coin is non-silver is a good one. I know because once you know the tells of this forgery ring and you see the "obvious problems" they never correct, you realize that they are not out to fool experts but rather to defraud novices and therefore why waste silver?

If they tweak their operation a bit to correct the molds and if they cast in 90% silver instead of base metal, they would fool most average collectors and perhaps a few authenticators. However, the costs of the investment would be 100 times greater than it is at present. They are a high volume manufacturer and their business model appears to be that it is better to sell more units cheaply than a few at a higher first cost.

I expect that someone will start to do that but so far it has not happened that I have heard about. When it does happen, I do not expect to see any of the obvious errors that are present here.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cableguy815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Haha. Looks like a few folks here picked up on the same two things that stuck out immediately to me.

Carlous'/Carlos' nose is large as it is in the genuine portrait but here it is something else... and those eyes! Oh lordy! I bet he could see from China all the way Kentucky with those.

I agree with JFransch, the rims & dentils are COMPLETELY wrong and the running seam is also a dead give away.

The pillars themselves are positioned wrong relative to the legend, not to mention that they are actually making contact with the E and X of "ET" and "REX", respectively - I don't believe I've seen that in genuine examples.


Quote:
There are numerous errors clearly visible yet 4 people are bidding. The bidders do not seem to be novices either - too many feedbacks for that.


We're at $102 with 16 bids & 6 bidders now. Number of bids is meaningless really... just says this is a bunch of folks that buy and sell a lot of stuff on eBay. You'd think that after a certain amount of transactions folks would gain experience and learn, but we all know how that works. I've come to accept that people are just inherently lazy.

As for the seller, I don't blame him/her. I don't think he cares. He's in it for the profit and may not even realize. You can question his ethics but like I said, I don't think he cares. He looks more like a jewelry & bullion/volume dealer rather than a numismatic connoisseur.

I've always maintained that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are getting themselves into. If you get taken... sorry, it's your fault.
Nothing better than a fresh World Crown arriving in the mail after a long and tiring day.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Perhaps the bidders are fans of M.A.S.H. and this looks like Klinger.

"Radar" from the show used to live on my mother's childhood block before/as M.A.S.H. took off... my grandpa used to cook meals for him in his starving days (mind you, they had 10 kids in a railroad apt... didn't take much to do a little more).

Bob, we've been talking about this 1777 and its relatives for HOW long now? Clear your brain for a minute... while WE all know what we're looking at... and really, a decent coin person should be able to ID the diagnostics.......... this IS a rather deceiving fake, overall. You're saying this is nickel-ish alloy, but I know for a fact this type is often done in proper 90% Ag or close alloy...


Quote:
I've always maintained that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are getting themselves into. If you get taken... sorry, it's your fault.

That's really what it comes down to... just that now, it's harder (and this fake type is 10+ years old).
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And yes, the AOC eyes are a giveaway... and yes, the denticles are weird/improper... but take me through an argument against a Mary Contrary/someone who knows just enough to hurt themself who says "but aren't Lima Charles III/IIII rims often like that?"
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob... 7+ years ago - my big awakening to this group. All tested silver per the seller (who is still eBay active and I have no reason to doubt... and has in fact seemed to get better with the actual numismatics over the years):
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cableguy815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RW. Do they have seams like this example too?

I don't have your knowledge on this series so I had to go dig a couple examples up - I see what you mean.




Still, there are sufficient differences (i.e. pillars not touching) not to mention that this forgery looks like a modern collar was used, the reverse bottom dentil/rim is flawlessly circular.
Nothing better than a fresh World Crown arriving in the mail after a long and tiring day.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, that 1806 Lima (lower left obverse) is what I mean.


Quote:
(i.e. pillars not touching)

Remember, individual punches...

Regrading the rim, though... yes, true, but you do see where it would take some 'splainin to make someone (who likely doesn't care all that much) see it, yes?
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cableguy815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can definitely see what you mean. But shouldn't that person purchasing be reasonably certain in what they are buying? If a person needs some "'splainin" then it implies doubt exists, and if doubt exists, one must either pass or eliminate doubt through study/research/digging, etc. If said person opts to by pass this step then what can one say but caveat emptor?

BTW - I couldn't really make out much in your image (besides the eyes in top pic, third from left & bottom right), details are much too small - I'd like to see what you're trying to show. Can you repost larger image/images?
Nothing better than a fresh World Crown arriving in the mail after a long and tiring day.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2019  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As an update:

The 1777 Mo FF FAKE that started this thread just sold for the bargain basement price of $ 134.50.

There were 4 bidders who bid in excess of $ 100 US and every one of the 9 individual bidders exceeded the actual value of this piece of garbage by a significant amount. The lowest bid by an individual bidder (Mr. 1180) was $26 which is far too high for most Numismatic Forgeries.

I see the actual value here at $1.00 at the most.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2019  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How do we reach the people who bid on this stuff?

cableguy815 You are correct that anyone that buys any coin without knowing what they are doing is risking a financial loss. So how do we stop them?

I have been an authenticator since the mid-1970's and while there have always been fakes around it has become a really serious problem, since even dealers who should know better are selling these coins on the secondary market.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2019  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cableguy815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ignorance is bliss. They will forever love this coin believing they got a steal of a lifetime and likely never be the wiser. When you look at this from this perspective, surely $134 is worth such enjoyment?
Nothing better than a fresh World Crown arriving in the mail after a long and tiring day.
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2019  10:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe @bobby131313 can get it town, if the transaction is not over yet . 
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