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Opinion On Authenticity (Roman Coins)

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 Posted 05/24/2019  7:39 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add paulhan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hu guys, well as you can see I am a newbie in the community and in coin collecting. As part of my first steps in coin collecting I am trying to identify trusted sellers and therefore have made some purchases from different individuals. In this attempt of mine I would probably need your help in order to identify the authenticity of the coins (I try to do my own research bust still, a more experienced opinion is always helpful) and create my trusted/untrusted seller list. As the current purchases were made on eBay I made sure to buy the coins from sellers with very good ratings, although they were never 100% positive (most had about 99.8% positive rating, with only a couple of buyers complaining about fakes). That being said in the following pictures you will find 2 coins from the same seller, and I would be very interested to know your thoughts, as to if they are original or not.

1) The first is a Silver Denarius depicting Caracalla on one side, and trophy + captives on the other.

2) The second is a bronze Diocletian Antoninianus - CONCORDIA MILITUM

as previously said, any insight as to if I can be confident or not of their authenticity is most welcome.
Edited by paulhan
05/24/2019 8:05 pm
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 Posted 05/24/2019  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been interested in ancient coins for over four decades, but my numismatic interests extend right up to current times.
Extremely deceiving fakes have bean made of all coins, that is, ancient, hammered, milled, and modern machine made coins as well, including proof coins.

It is much harder to expose a fake coin from pictures alone, compared with:
in hand examination,
XRF analysis,
visual comparison alongside a known genuine example,
searching data bases to compare with known fakes, and
independent proving of provenance.

I am not keen on buying from eBay, unless I know the reputation of the seller. I really do prefer to examine each coin in hand, before making a decision to buy.

I have an extensive collection of fake coins, to enable comparison with any coin that I may buy.

I have a few books on the manufacture of fake coins, to be enable consideration of the characteristics that identify their 'fakeness'.
'Numismatic Forgery', by Charles M. Larson, is probably the best of these.
Edited by sel_69l
05/25/2019 08:41 am
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 Posted 05/24/2019  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ph, first welcome to CCF. Second, could you please post a couple pics showing the edge of the silver piece? Thx.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 05/24/2019  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The seller ancientground has a mixed reputation. His bronze coins are almost always good. His silver coins and antiquities, in my opinion, are often (but not always) fake.

I think the Diocletian is OK. Hard to tell if the Caracalla is fake or just poorly preserved. It has an odd look.
Edited by Kushanshah
05/24/2019 9:05 pm
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 Posted 05/24/2019  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paulhan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello, first of all thank you for your piece of advice as an older and more experieneced collector to a fresh recruit .

Yes I can imagine that pictures are not the best way to verify the authenticity of a coin and may certainly lead some times do wrong conclusions.
As a begginer I believe that for me at least reading some good book over the topic (thank you for the reference), visual examination and cross checking in databases with known fakes would be the best I could do for now, as XRF analysis for example would be pretty dificult to obtain.

Regarding the weight that is certainly something that I could also add to the posts regarding the coins (which I will do by modifying the post).

Once more thank you for your advice
Edited by paulhan
05/24/2019 9:08 pm
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 Posted 05/24/2019  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paulhan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Spence , thank you for your warm welcome. Yes of course, although I will be able do it first thing tomorrow as I am currently not at the same location as the coins.

@Kushanshah , thank you very much for your insight and thoughts
Edited by paulhan
05/24/2019 9:20 pm
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 Posted 05/24/2019  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
XRF analysis is not really all that difficult to obtain.
A commercial scrap jewelry and gold bullion buyer business almost certainly should have a hand held XRF instrument.

If you are not selling (for example, an ancient coin), they may charge a fee for service. Tha ancients could not refine silver above about 95% fineness. What you are looking for is a wide spread of trace metals in the alloy, not just copper only.
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 Posted 05/24/2019  10:24 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the community

I agree with the others.

Your first coin IMO is not genuine, it has too many points going against it from the surface, design and lettering all point to a fake coin.

The other coin is surely genuine.

I recommend you check out the section here title Books, downloads and websites, there is a lot of information that will help you learn about ancient coins. Also check the fake coin section, there you will find a list of fake coin sellers.

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 Posted 05/25/2019  03:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pilegicvs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Until recently, a British coin dealer maintained an ebay Buying Guide titled, "Genuine Sellers list of Ancient Coins/Artifacts". ebay seems to have deleted many of these buying guides, as only a handful are listed now. (I think I wrote a buying guide, too, early in the 2000's, and it's certainly gone!) I was going to post the web address as it might have been useful, but it doesn't seem to exist at the moment. I have the list saved locally, but it's 3 years old. In any case, lists of FAKE sellers are easy to find.
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 Posted 05/25/2019  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paulhan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow thanks for all the input...really appreciate it.

And yes it seems that the most probable conclusion is that the silver one is fake and the other one genuine, so in my rush and enthusiasm as a newbie I made the mistake of making a purchase without doing a good research beforehand.

Although ashamed I must admit that I made the same mistake with a couple of other purchases from other sellers, although after searching in the untrusted sellers lists on the internet I could not find the specific ones theres (so hopefully I am lucky with those purchases despite the lack of research).

I could post pictures of those coins too if anyone is interested to take a look, although I just arrived at the community and do not want to start bombarding the forum (also will also try to do a research of my own).

Anyway once more thanks a lot for all the replies, and I hope to learn from my mistakes for future purchases.

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 Posted 05/25/2019  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
paulhan: Don't loose heart about the possibility of fakes.

One of the adventures with the study and collection of ancient coins, is to investigate the authenticity of any coin that you may be interested in, be it for your own collection or some other collection.

I have an interesting and growing collection of fake ancient coins, some of them very deceiving. I happen to be fortunate in getting quite a good education from a professional dealer, who is considered probably the best in the identification of fake ancient coins in Australia. I also have a small but very educative collection of books on the subject of fake coins. My learning curve will always remain steep.

Together, this background has given me some confidence in the identification of fake coins, but it is by far and away the best if you can examine a suspect coin in hand then just looking at a suspect coin on screen. Nevertheless, it is highly desirable that you post pictures of suspect coins here in the CCF, so that others may be able to advise you further. We are all here, ready and willing to help. The picture of the denarius you posted is an example of that.
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