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Looking For A Reference Book Covering Medieval Low Countries

 
 
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 Posted 06/21/2019  9:21 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Any thoughts on what reference book I should be getting for my numismatic library to cover the medieval low countries? Is it van der Chijs' 1852 opus, "De munten van de voormalige graven en hertogen van Gelderland van de vroegste tijden tot aan de pacificatie van Gend". I see softcover reprints of this one on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Munten-Voorm...sr=8-1-fkmr0


But is possible that there is really nothing more recent that will cover coins from roughly the 13th to 16th Centuries or so? I should point out that I occasionally see works by Vanhoudt, de mey, and de Witte referenced. Thanks in advance for your advice as to the benefits of these and whatever references there are.

Ron, feel free to move this thread over to the reference book section if you prefer. I'm thinking that the right eyeballs are here though and this is why I'm initially posting it in the ancients and medievals section of CCF.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Edited by Spence
06/21/2019 9:24 pm
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 Posted 06/22/2019  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One trick I've used to find references is to go to CNG's site and do a search for the type or series of interest. Once you have the abbreviated reference names from the item descriptions, click on the references tab and do a search for the full bibliographic entry. Anything published before 1927 should be out of copyright and is likely available free at sites like books.google.com or archive.org.
Edited by Kushanshah
06/22/2019 12:33 am
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 Posted 06/22/2019  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the CNG idea @KS! However, I'm also hoping for a personal recommendation from one of our members who has used one or more of these resources.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 06/23/2019  11:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Shooting from the hip a bit, as I don't have any of the main references, despite having some medieval Brabant and Flanders coins, I think you may run into an issue with the breadth of the Low Countries in both time and space (i.e. there not a one-size-fits-all reference, which you've probably already figured out).

Looking through the most recent Elsen catalog, amd assuming you would want to focus on Brabant and Flanders, I see this pattern:
Brabant - it looks like everything in your time frame is covered in the first two volumes of de Witte (Histoire monetaire des Comtes de Louvain, ducs de Brabant, et marquis de Saint Empire ROmain, 3 vols. 1894-99) , which is accessible in Numista. Ghyssens (a brief monograph with very little description, but with plates) covers everything up to the Burgundian period (1406) and cross-references de Witte. Best of all, it is sold by Elsen for just 8 euro.
Flanders - coins up to the Burgundian period show a Gaillard or Delmonte reference. Gaillard is available on-line. After 1406 it is a Van Houdt reference (De munten van de Bourgondische, Spaanse en Oostenrijkse Nederlanden en van de Franse en Hollanbdse, 2015)

Then there is the pre-1400 coinage of the smaller counties, abbeys, bishoprics (Gelderland, Hainaut, Holland, Liege, Namur, Nivelles, Stavelot, etc) which I don't think is covered in any of these, but maybe you won;t see many anyhow?

Quite messy ... Hopefully we will hear from others (I, too will be interested!)

Edited by tdziemia
06/23/2019 12:06 pm
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 Posted 06/26/2019  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While waiting for other comments, here is some info on Ghyssens which I mentioned above. It covers Brabant from its beginning to 1406 (the last reign before the Burgundian period). 18 pages, 30 plates, published by Jean Elsen in Brussels, 8 euros.
The photos below are:
1. Cover
2. Page 13 covering some of the coins of Jean III.. esterlin, half groats, groats (note the cross-reference of each type to the de Witte numbers)
3. Plate XXII that corresponds to some of the coins mentioned in the second photo (with the de Witte numbers)

If, after considering other options, it's of interest, PM me, and I could order a copy the next time I buy coin(s) there, to save you the international postage.



Edited by tdziemia
06/26/2019 8:44 pm
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 Posted 06/26/2019  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add antwerpen2306 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You will never find one book covering the Low Countries , but have to look for the Southern Netherlands ( Zuidelijke Nederlanden ) , Flanders ( Vlaanderen) ,...
The book you mention is for the coins in the country of Gelderland ( in the Netherlands now ) .
I think it has to be possible to find information on internet , but it is not my speciality .
I will ask for it on next meeting ofmy coin club , but it is in August ( July holliday ) .
In the mentime , I will look on internet and found this for the Soutrhern Netherlands , but it is from1419-1794 . I think you can translate it with google .
http://users.telenet.be/munten/database.htm
In the meantime , I look further . albert
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 Posted 06/26/2019  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add antwerpen2306 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 06/26/2019  12:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Eventually, volume 7a and 7b of this reference may become available:

https://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/research/mec
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 Posted 06/26/2019  8:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The FitzWilliam/Cambridge volumes sound very interesting.

For anglophones, it removes the question of whether you are more comfortable with French (de Witte and Gaillard), or Vlaams / Dutch (VanHoudt).

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 Posted 06/26/2019  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdz, thank you for jump-starting this conversation and to @antwerpen and @pepactonius for the further leads. I agree that it seems like splitting this up by North/South seems to be possible. It also seems like the "in-preparation" works by Grierson, Spuffa, and Boffa are long overdue and welcome addition to the library of decades old works currently available.

With Germany, it has been a state-by-state effort for me (with the obvious exception of dated coins, which are all in Levinson). However, I feel like I am able to find virtually every coin I want to in my current reference books.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 06/28/2019  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add antwerpen2306 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found this site this evening with coins from antiquity to the 19 century , maybe interesting .I hope a translation is possible. albert
http://www.bonatiele.nl/FDETNL1/mid...emunten.html
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 Posted 06/29/2019  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting.

If anyone else wants to explore, you can drill down to the medieval era by first clicking on "Antieken" at the left,. then clicking on "Middeleeuwen," when the next screen comes up.
The buttons on the right are then the centuries, and the entries are organized by the year of the beginning of the issue.

In addition to covering the Low Countries very broadly, and providing the catalog reference in all the books that have been mentioned on this thread (de Witte, Gaillard, van de Chijs, Van Gelder), there are entries from all the rest of Europe (Germany, France, England, Hungary ...)

Based on the photos, it has a crowd-sourced look.

Edited by tdziemia
06/29/2019 09:13 am
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 Posted 06/29/2019  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes that website was pretty interesting. For me, I think that I will start with Ghyssens and then move forward from there.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 06/29/2019  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Been doing some more research on this subject and found a recent article on academia.edu by Torongo and van Oosterhout, titled "A Preliminary Overview of the Leeuwengroten of Brabant Part One: Brussels". In this paper, they provide a unvarnished view of some of the reference literature for medieval Brabant numismatics. They have followed this up wih a second paper, "A Preliminary Overview of the Leeuwengroten of Brabant Part II: MONETA BRABAN."

Here is their conclusion from Part 2:


Quote:
Despite great deal of writing having been done on the subject, the BRABAN leeuwengroten
(and associated fractionals) of Brabant have never before been accurately cataloged, due in
large part to the general complacency that has always surrounded the leeuwengroot in the
numismatic community. We hope to have rectified that situation with this current report,
although as always, more research is still needed on the subject.


In some ways, this mirrors my own experience, although clearly my level of expertise is significantly more shallow than that of these two authors. For now, I'm still gonna pick up a copy of Ghyssens, lumps and all.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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