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NGC And Ebay Partner On Expert Review Service

 
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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/11/2019  02:12 am Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Being discussed with NGC in a secret group of counterfeit busters on Facebook. So far the service seems to be getting good reviews from those trying it.

https://www.NGCcoin.com/news/articl...ew-launched/

They say it will NOT affect submission times at all, and the service works within 5 minutes usually.

I'm not sold on it - yet, I'm seeing it as another way to get money from collectors, what you do get is a voucher to use on a submission (the same coin the authenticate or authenticate/grade $5 or $10) I don't know that yet. What if you pay for the service get a good result then don't win the coin? Lots of questions to be answered, but it's a step in the right direction at least - trying to rid our hobby of fraudsters, scammers and counterfeits.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 07/11/2019  02:59 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's interesting, but I think it's a plan doomed to failure. We all know what happens when authenticity questions are posted here about eBay coins. I can't imagine fashioning a business plan off of that. Like you say, what if you don't win the coin?

It's essentially a numismatic version of Carfax. The difference is most cars cost more than most coins and potential for failure is higher with cars, so it may be worth it in those cases. Personally, I would rather do my own research and take my own risks rather than getting involved in some "guarantee" contract with a company.
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
-Lucretius

"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
-Kurdt Kobain

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
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 Posted 07/11/2019  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I honestly think it's a complete waste of money and hope none of the other TPGs lower themselves to that level. Look at the authenticity ranges and even grade ranges. Even the newest collector could give opinions that fall into those ranges of likely real, likely not real, I dunno. And the grading one of 1-35 likely, honestly are you kidding me with that for charging people. It's like charging someone for the customer service opinion especially since it isn't binding nor is there any guarantee with it.

When I pay a TPG for something they have to do much better than that and I hope people save their money from things like this.
Edited by basebal21
07/11/2019 05:42 am
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 Posted 07/11/2019  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What if NGC is trying to authenticate a coin with a lousy sellers photo' ( S )would you take that chance that NGC will give you the right info .
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 Posted 07/11/2019  10:29 am  Show Profile   Check AES's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add AES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely, if I was stupid enough to give them five bucks for their opinion on a specimen they couldn't see, I would take their word for it.
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 Posted 07/11/2019  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So I learned some more about it this morning when I checked back in. The voucher is only for that particular coin you paid for the expert opinion on, a quote from the person at NGC;

"As an added benefit, NGC will give the person who purchased the NGC Expert Review service a voucher toward NGC's full authentication, grading and encapsulation services. The voucher is equal to the amount paid for the review and is valid for 90 days from the date the NGC Expert Review service was purchased."

And to the question where is it available and when, NGC thought it was only at the checkout time, but that is not the case it seems, as several members of the FB group I'm in have already tried it - without purchasing the coin, and now NGC is looking in to that. For the record they tried the service on known fake coins currently listed for sale, NGC did get them correct as "Likely NOT Genuine" fron the photos provided by the sellers on eBay page.

"It's a service available to buyers/winning bidders after/at checkout.
From my understanding via articles on eBay and NGC If the buyer chooses to use the service, the seller is notified, and asked to postpone shipping. The service should take two days or less. IF it is determined likely not genuine, the buyer is refunded entire cost including purchase price.
Seller keeps their item. If it is likely genuine, the seller is notified to ship the item, and the buyer receives a voucher in the amount of services they chose, to use within 90 days, towards slabbing the coin."

So far this is not the case and eBay and NGC are looking into it. Some in our group are seeing the link below the coins, others (me included) are not seeing the link.

EDIT: The reason it wasn't showing up was my blocking extension stopped it. It shows up when I turn it off. Just wanted to clarify, that was my own fault.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
07/11/2019 3:06 pm
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 Posted 07/11/2019  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So NGC will be doing (for a fee) what people ask us all the time here on CCF. This may get rid of some of the fakes being sold. Of course they will have to have some sort of rules concerning picture quality as well.

Since a slabbed coin's grade can be changed if broken out and resubmitted even to the same company, the NGC marketers probably thought they would give it a shot to see if people will pay for an online subjective opinion as well. As long as the wording is put right, they win.

After all, we are now in the age where people will actually pay in hopes to have stickers affixed to a good assessment of an already slabbed coin, so why not know create a new type of marketable "service" as well.

Make it and people will pay.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
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 Posted 07/11/2019  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Check NPCoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NPCoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And to the question where is it available and when, NGC thought it was only at the checkout time, but that is not the case it seems, as several members of the FB group I'm in have already tried it - without purchasing the coin, and now NGC is looking in to that.


Quote:
"It's a service available to buyers/winning bidders after/at checkout.
From my understanding via articles on eBay and NGC ..."


NGC expressly states: "This service gives you a preliminary opinion that can help you to make a smarter purchase." emphasis added
https://www.NGCcoin.com/expert-review-ebay/

"Preliminary" here, by definition, denotes occurring prior to the purchase...not after it. That is basic English. In the link, NGC states expressly that "preliminary" is in respects to the actual purchase...not to potential submission. The potential submission is only an added conditional perk...not the purchased service itself.

And to make claim that this is supposed to be a retroactive service as opposed to a proactive service is beyond questionable. NGC itself has the service available for anyone to use at any point during the auction/listing: https://www.NGCcoin.com/expert-revi...ay/purchase/

eBay itself links directly to the first link I posted from their Coins & Paper Money category page. Although it may be true that there may also be an after purchase attempt to try to get buyers to utilize the service retroactively when making payment, it is obvious that the service has been set up for proactive use.

I believe that NGC's July 9th announcement echoes this expressly:
"To use this service, eBay buyers should look for the NGC Expert Review link near the bid or buy section on the eBay listing page for an uncertified coin."
https://www.NGCcoin.com/news/articl...ew-launched/

With that said, I do agree to a point with basebal21 with regards to the wastefulness of such a service, especially with no guarantees nor any responsibility for their "consultation". As on another forum, I had expressed that
I have problem with the premise of the service. However, I do see very much so the possibility for misuse and abuse.

The biggest qualm I have on the matter is that NGC is offering consulting that could potentially lead to wrongful or tortious interference with contracts, while trying to distance themselves from any responsibility for their actions.

Because of all of the other "protections" in place for the buyer if an item is found to be counterfeit (not authentic), I do not see the opposite side of the coin as being so much a problem. However, NGC should really have something in place (at least in the form of advocacy) in writing stating their responsibilities if their advice resulted in the purchase of a coin that is not authentic.
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 Posted 07/11/2019  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Check NPCoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NPCoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
After all, we are now in the age where people will actually pay in hopes to have stickers affixed to a good assessment of an already slabbed coin


If I am understanding this correctly, you are seeing this service being used on already slabbed coins (ie, ANACS and PCGS) to see if it will CAC. That is not what the service is for, however. NGC has stated in their announcement that the service is for uncertified coins.

If not, then I can understand that greed factor that could drive NGC's "service" to success.
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 Posted 07/11/2019  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From:

Quote:
However, within any certified coin grade, not all coins are "solid" quality coins.
...Now there's an easy way to identify coins that are solid for the grade - a CAC verification sticker...
With CAC, prices for the solid quality coins can be untethered from the lesser quality counterparts.

A CAC sticker means: It has been verified as meeting our strict quality standards.

Pretty much sums it up with their own sales pitch: We are the experts who can tell you if your expertly graded coins is high, medium, or low for what the experts who saw it labeled it as.

They don't put on the sticker if they think its not good enough. They (rarely) affix a gold sticker if they believe its undergraded.

...And fortunately for both companies none of it is scientifically verifiable or they would not have the businesses they have.

Summing it all up - as before: People are paying "experts" to assess the work of already paid "experts."

This NGC eBay move remonds me exactly of what the general opinion was when TPGs started out. The cirlce of collectors/dealers/people I was in saw it exactly in light of the term being used here in this thread: greed.

That attitude was/is still prevalent in (some) other countries where slabbing has not been embraced b/c they wonder why would anyone would pay hard earned cash to do something they could easily (despite marketing hype) do for themselves? This is what was said when TPGs started out her in the US, but the US citizenry having more disposable income than any other place back then meant the TPGS got a foothold and were happy.

Then the internet and eBay etc. being flooded with slabs made it appear slabs were some sort of norm everybody thought was peachy keen. Fast forward almost 30 years and you get the present popularity - even when the same coin is never guaranteed the same grade when resubmitted to the same company.

Disclaimer: If a person likes the looks of slabs and takes comfort in that they have an experts opinion, and even a expert's opinion of the expert - then GREAT! Enjoy the hobby the way you like it. A lineup of coins in slabs with all matching labels can look very pleasing to the eye and the product makes a different way to enjoy coins.

Just don't expect everyone to take seriously a criticism or favoritism on an action made by one of these subjectivity-based (marketed as such and NOT a slam) companies! You cannot make a science with absolutes when subjectivity defines the companies we are trying to non-subjectively understand!

Greed? Possibly. But possibly no more greed than ever has been done with these types of services.

Does PCGS inventing/giving awards for the best registry sets seem like greed b/c it promoted more competition for their product and naturally runs up prices? Not necessarily. They had a business idea to make more money (in the long run) and people liked it.

Make it and people will pay.


- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Edited by Earle42
07/11/2019 5:47 pm
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 Posted 07/11/2019  8:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Possibly a break-out business move for NGC, and a way for eBay sellers to get a leg up "on the cheap", if they think it will help them.

It acknowledges that eBay is the biggest market for coin sales, and that the TPGs have been angling for a way to capitalize on it.

Will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Edited by tdziemia
07/11/2019 8:55 pm
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 Posted 07/11/2019  10:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 07/11/2019  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The biggest qualm I have on the matter is that NGC is offering consulting that could potentially lead to wrongful or tortious interference with contracts, while trying to distance themselves from any responsibility for their actions.


Exactly. They clearly don't have much confidence in the service considering how basic and wide the opinions are of likely real/likely fake/ I dunno and the grades of 1-35/40-58/60+. It basically takes a couple days to a week to train someone to be able to lump things into those massive ranges with reasonable accuracy yet people are now supposed to pay NGC to do what any forum can do and really basically any collector can as well. Hitting spreads that big is basically like going hunting at the Zoo, it just simply isn't hard.

Which leads me to the other point. Given the massive spreads and the low cost I am not convinced an actual grader has been pulled from the grading room to do this. Maybe someone in training or a staff member but I seriously doubt any senior grader or finazlier is wasting their time on this.

Quite frankly anyone that can't consistently accurately fit coins in categories as wide as NGC is using needs to stay away from raw coins entirely until they can.
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 Posted 07/12/2019  02:09 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Maybe someone in training or a staff member but I seriously doubt any senior grader or finazlier is wasting their time on this.


I would be willing to cyber-commute for the job.
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
-Lucretius

"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
-Kurdt Kobain

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Bedrock of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2019  03:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
. I would be willing to cyber-commute for the job.


Hahaha me too.
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