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England Or Fujian Province China?

 
 
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Valued Member
Australia
268 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2019  12:29 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CoinOS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Offered this by an online acquaintance last week.
My first though is that's too good to be true.
Patina looks artificial - probably a high grade copy.

However -
Weight is correct at 11.31 grams
I've never seen China get it right.




Here are some pictures showing various weights of a mix of real and fake florins:

Worn coins weigh less - makes sense I guess.
Digital Scale fluctuates by +- 3/100 due to thermal currents from AC in that room and the final digit doesn't mean much.






I have 15L's but all the good ones are encapsulated.

Is it rubbish or real?
Pillar of the Community
Australia
527 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2019  12:37 am  Show Profile   Check ryurazu's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ryurazu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
pictures with too much glare

note Chinese normally dont get it right due to fact that their techniques and materials are not good, that's why.

As far as I can tell its still good but I can not determine enough that I would call it real or fake, especially due to the high value of this coin in such a grade.
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Edited by ryurazu
07/20/2019 12:41 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
697 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2019  02:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it is fake then they are getting REALLY good at it. Needs to be examined in hand and ideally comparing it to known genuine examples. The rims are troubling and don't look right, that is often the first clue to spotting the high grade fakes.
Valued Member
Australia
226 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2019  03:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echidna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The pic is not good enough for a proper assessment.
However the reverse beading looks all wrong.
Valued Member
Australia
268 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2019  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinOS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
due to the high value of this coin in such a grade


The yellow bit is current estimated retail for 1915L



Quote:
If it is fake then they are getting REALLY good at it


So it would seem.




Quote:
The pic is not good enough for a proper assessment.

It's not good enough for anything but a wild guess.

In another topic under this category recently I basically accused an Australian seller of auctioning a Chinese fake.
Here is a reminder:



That illustrates that Chinese fakes vary in quality dramatically.

As for the imaged coin here, update to follow.
Edited by CoinOS
07/20/2019 9:26 pm
Valued Member
Australia
268 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinOS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Continuing my masterclass series on spotting premium grade counterfeit Australian coins:

Imagery taken by Nikon bridge zoom in macro mode.
Axially inverted tripod under natural light.
Shadowing doesn't help, but it's the best quality I could do on a cloudy day.



Benchmark MS66 - finest known



What is right - almost everything
What is wrong ->


That doesn't look right.
I'm no expert on Emu legs, most of my experience is with chicken legs -
however I think as a general rule - legs should be attached to the body.

At this point, I decided to take a few of my own 1915L florins to the electronics lab -
and chuck em under the microscope:




Okay, at this point basically I have no idea whatsoever is going on.
[Those two images are genuine high grade PCGS examples 55/58]

Time to look at another one - not mine this time..58


and MS63:


Both Emu's legs are definitely attached to their body.

What I'm seeing here is that on elite grade examples there is a clear metallic flow into the Emu -
but not as evident on some lower graded coins.

The circled area above has a shadow at the exact point I want to examine and is inconclusive.
I cannot visually delineate the boundary on that with any real confidence.

The date, star, shield, COA, scroll, grass, and surface look okay, it pings well and weight is 11.31 grams which is correct.

Further testing is needed:

What do you think?

conclusion to follow...
Pillar of the Community
Australia
697 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  04:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fake
The emu leg is just wrong
Same with the feathers on the emu
As for the grass.
The rims (denticles) are also just too questionable. Look at the IN in florin and line them up with the denticles. They differ between the Benchmark example and your "coin". That alone condemns this "coin".
Valued Member
Australia
268 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinOS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Look at the IN in florin and line them up with the denticles


Yes.

Here is the old breed of Chinese fake:
I don't have this but did find this photo on a Google search.



Broken Emu leg, date - many obvious indicators it is fake.
Several of these unfortunately sold as real on eBay.

The sole purpose here is to find a quick way to recognize the new fakes.

These high grade counterfeits have a misalignment.
The 'I' in FLORIN is between and slightly to the right of two denticles.



On genuine early florins the 'I' in FLORIN lines up with the right hand side of a rim denticle.



This applies to the 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1914h, 1915h 1916 1917 1918 1919 & 1921

Lots of things are misaligned, but I like this as a simple and quick way to identify counterfeits.

Valued Member
Australia
268 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinOS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A factory (dozens actually) in Fujian China are making these from 90% silver.

Weight test will not work.
Ping test will not work.
Magnetic slide test will not work.
Ice melt test will not work.
It'll confuse an XRF

That counterfeit will pass every one of those.

So, if an unscrupulous seller tries to flip one of these on eBay for a quick million percent profit - that's an easy way to check it.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1378 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2019  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting stuff.

If nothing else, a brightly-toned coin that tops the finest known seems a little improbable.
Valued Member
Australia
268 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2019  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinOS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Interesting stuff.


Many Australian collectors and self-appointed-anointed experts here are clueless.

I keep a close eye on what China are doing, as well as Turkey, ME, and other countries that are busy counterfeiting.

Regardless of the ego-driven Australian coin community -
truth is that nobody here could quickly spot a truly high grade counterfeit.

However I strongly suggest they keep trying.

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