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Help With 2017 P LSC Lines Behind The "Um" On The Reverse.

 
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Valued Member

United States
70 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  12:11 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Tiff2128 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
There are lines behind the "UM" on the reverse of the 2017P LSC. Since the lines are not going through the lettering but behind them this leads me to believe it is not regular damage and the lines do not look like die cracks. Any help is always appreciated, thank you.




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United States
617 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  12:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rookie2018 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't know what those lines are but you might have a doubled die reverse. Post pics of initials ple ASE
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United States
22785 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  12:20 am  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's from multiple coin contact marks from other coins. Not an error coin. PSD.
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
1973 D Lincoln Memorial cent With Recurring Die Subsidence Error Information. http://goccf.com/t/304624
Machine Doubling tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
Valued Member
United States
70 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tiff2128 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for pointing the possible DDR out.

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United States
70 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  12:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tiff2128 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I apologize I know I am really new to everything but I am confused on how the PSD did not strike through the letters just straight strikes behind the letters?

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Canada
2321 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  06:11 am  Show Profile   Check silverwolf's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add silverwolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's from multiple coin contact marks from other coins. Not an error coin. PSD.


Incorrect answer, those are not coin contact marks, it appears to be tooling marks on the die, or die scratches
Valued Member
United States
122 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  07:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add demelone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quote, 'I am confused on how the PSD did not strike through the letters just straight strikes behind the letters?'
The letters in question are incuse, recessed into the metal. The lighting makes them appear raised, which makes the lines appear to be behind the letters, when in actuallity, the lines are passing over the letters.
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United States
617 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  08:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rookie2018 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The lines definitely are not passing over letters. It doesn't look like contact marks to me.

Here is the reason why I was thinking this to be DDR




I'm still new just like OP so I don't know!

Cheers
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United States
615 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those letters on the shield are incused on the shield. meaning they would be raised on the die.

I don't see any damage to the copper layer to suggest it happened after the strike, which should be apparent if it were. could be contact marks from a reeded edge, but they look like impressions, not scrapes, and if they were scraps I'd think there would be some copper loss.

The shield itself is the high point in that area of the coin, I'd think if it was PSD the zinc would be clearly exposed if it were this deep, they aren't down to the bottom of the "M" but they are close to it. but I don't have an idea of what could put raised lines on a die, unless it was a strike through of some sort and the M crushed whatever it was being the higher contact point.
Perplexing. I'm not a professional at this, doesn't seem like PSD to me. I hate these reverses, hard for me to figure out what are high and low points on the die with incuse and relief on the same coin. rises on coins are lows on the dies, lows on the coin are rises on the die.... Jeesh. and Lincoln shield cents have both, and middling relief as well.

Yeah I feel like it should be some sort of strike through something. but I guess it also could be a planchet issue before plating that doesn't get obliterated on the strike in that middling, not too deep, not too high area of the shield. that spot isn't a high or a low so it doesn't get the most of the push of metal or the fill like the letters do. maybe less metal movement leaving those marks that were on the planchet before plating behind after the strike possibly.... I dunno.
I think I've thought about this too much. lol

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United States
38621 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  10:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The devices on the EPU is set deeper into the design. So contact on the coin will leave marks on the higher surface. It is PSD. Note on the last two images you can see that the lines are cut into the coin. The devices are still lower than the EPU. When it reaches that a deeper point, you will see the incuse devices affected:

When the coin is rotated 90 degrees it is easier to see the incuse EPU better. This coin had marks as deep as the EPU so it shows on these images:
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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United States
22785 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  12:31 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silverwolf, I was correct. It is PSD. Coop weighed in on it, and my assessment is correct.
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
1973 D Lincoln Memorial cent With Recurring Die Subsidence Error Information. http://goccf.com/t/304624
Machine Doubling tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
Pillar of the Community
United States
617 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rookie2018 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still do not see those lines going over the letters. If it was damage, the letters would show the same line all the way across. I don't know though. I'm not a pro, just tell what I see!

Cheers
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2321 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Check silverwolf's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add silverwolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
and my assessment is correct


regardless of what the lines are, they are not coin contact marks. The odds of that many uniform hits, all in a row, is out of this world..
Valued Member
United States
122 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add demelone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The letters are not raised, they are recessed into the metal. If they were raised, yes, the lines would go through the letters. But they are recessed. The impression of the letters are lower than the surrounding metal. When the surface gets scratched, the scratch mark doen't show on the letter because they are lower than the scratch marks.
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United States
617 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rookie2018 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know what coins you look at, but the ones I check out the letters are most definitely raised :confused:

Cheers
Valued Member
United States
122 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2019  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add demelone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The letters around the rim of the coin are raised. One cent is raised. E Pluribus Unum is not. It is incused.
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