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1865 2c Mpd Variety Check

 
 
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 Posted 09/20/2019  07:24 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Does this appear to be a misplaced date in the denticles under the 6 and 8?
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 Posted 09/20/2019  07:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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 Posted 09/20/2019  08:36 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe
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 Posted 09/20/2019  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sharper pic needed.
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 Posted 09/20/2019  11:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In this case using strategically placed parts of the anatomy serve to provide decent perspectives of proportional distances:


The 2nd denticle from the left has an open space only reaching to the lower lip. The two far right normal size denticles possess openings which extend significantly lower than the bottom of the chin of our highly compensated model.


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 Posted 09/20/2019  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The two known MPD for 1865 two cent coins are both fancy 5 which your coin is. The reverse looks to have the necessary die crack through the "TE" of States. so I'd say you found one!

Flynn classification - KF-F22-MPD

Only 8 specimens known as of his book in 2011, no idea how many have been found since it came out, but a tough find for sure, I'm pretty sure I don't have one myself yet. but in lower grades it becomes tougher to tell without the die crack on the reverse, this identifying die crack makes lower grade examples a lot easier to ID. So I'd expect a lot more have been found since the book was published.
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 Posted 09/21/2019  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like something is going on there from what I can see. Which die? I'm not well informed with these. But the shape on the rim looks like like a MPD.
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 Posted 09/22/2019  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes it's a mis-placed date there are at least 10 known different mis-placed dates in the two cent series, only two of them are 1865 both fancy 5, five are 1868 dates, a single 1869 known and two 1971 dates.

The one your's is Richard, is the second of the 1865's. Obvious due to the die crack on the reverse.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

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 Posted 09/23/2019  12:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...least 10 known different mis-placed dates


@westcoin

I had several follow-up ?s ref this coin & related MPDs:

a. When you say 'known' are you referring to the number of individual MPDs coins discovered in the 1865 FS-1304 category, for example, or to the two PCGS/NGC- recognized number of MPD variety types for the 1865: FS-1304 & FS-1305?

b. Similarly, you said the 1868 had five known MPDs. Are these five distinct FS category types or actual 1868 MPD coins that have been discovered?

c. Since I checked for only NGC and PCGS recognized MPD varieties, I could be missing out by excluding the 1871 MPD variety (ies?) which neither TPG currently documents on-line. Where is the MPD located on the coin for that date and what source would be best to check out for a picture of it (them)?

d. Finally, where is the MPD located for this attached CoinFacts photo of the 1869 2C MPD & RPD FS-301 (003.9), BN (Regular Strike). I cannot see it.

https://www.PCGS.com/coinfacts/coin...3-9-bn/38277

I am asking all of this because searching for MPDs can be tedious and the MPDs could be located in subtle crud-covered places other than the denticles?

b/t/w I am Mark (mdpmedia) who dug up this featured '65 MPD and Richard (aka coop) is the graphic artist all-around coin guru.

fyi

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 Posted 09/23/2019  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry Mark I missed the correct person I was replying to. I'm getting the information I'm using from Kevin Flynn and his last two cent book "The Authoritative Reference on Two Cent Coins."

I don't think either Fivaz/Stanton (Cherrypickers Guide) nor PCGS Coin Facts lists all the ones Kevin noted in his book.

Kevin lists the 1869 MPD-001 as the most common 1869 2 cent piece, it is also a RPD listed as KF-5-RPD, Breen 2398, Kliman 4D+4E, RPD-004 The repunching date is the top of the 18 is above to the North.

The MPD on the 1869 is the 1 and very tough to see as the denticles are very close together making it tough to verify the repunched 1 in them. Even his book photos don't show it very well at all. It's page 83 if you have a copy to look at.

I'm not 100% convinced it's a MPD, according to Kevin's book the top of the MPD 1 protrudes from the top of the denticles to the right of the 1 in the date. PCGS Coinfacts coin in MS65RD soft of shows off the spot the best I still can't be 100% of the 1 showing where he says, if it's there, I would think it would take some special highlighting on a photo to get it to photograph well if at all. Much, much tougher to see it than even the 1864LM reverse Indian Head cent clash. Frank Leone's book "Longacre's Two Cent Piece Die Varieties and Errors" doesn't even mention the MPD in his description, just the RPD. I don't have Kliman's book at hand to see if he mentions it either. Breen's Encyclopedia does not mention the MPD just the RPD.

It appears to be one of the varieties that is almost if not entirely impossible to see on all except a few ultra high grade examples. I've taken the photo you posted and circled where I believe the MPD is supposed to be. Still not very obvious, but something is there.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
09/23/2019 4:14 pm
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 Posted 09/24/2019  06:15 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mark,

Sorry I didn't get to finish answering all your questions. I've been working on tracking down all known 1864 Small Motto Proof sales in known history these days, doubt I'll ever be able to afford one though. I have tracked at least two in circulated (impaired) grades, even those are 5 figure coins.

Kevin Flynn lists 5 different MPD for 1868 (all distinct);

MPD-001 MPD Top of a 6 seen in denticles below the 6 (also a RPD) sitting above the denticles.
MPD-002 MPD Top of a 6 seen in the denticles below the 6 sitting very low into the denticles.
MPD-003 MPD Top of a 6 very low in the denticles (also a RPD)
MPD-004 MPD Top of a 6 seen at the very bottom of the denticles right of the 6.
MPD-005 MPD Top of a 6 seen at the bottom of the denticles to the right of the 8.

The strangest spot for a MPD in the two cent series, is found on a 1865F - The top of a 1 seen in the field almost to the left of the arrow feathers (very distant from the date). Both known 1865 MPD's are both of the Fancy 5 variety. The rest of all the Two Cent Piece MPDs are found in the denticles according to Kevin's book.

As to the 1871 MPDs they are very rare, as of the publishing date 2011;

1871 MPD-001 Top of an 8 seen in the denticles below the 8 (only 3 specimens known)
1871 MPD-002 Top of a 1 seen in the denticles to the right of the 1, Notes (not discernible in lower grades, and rarer than the 1871 MPD-001) So we are to assume less than 3 known specimens as of 2011.

Once any book on varieties is published it of course kick starts collectors into searching out these rare varieties, as with VAMs and the Publication of the TOP 100 book. So I'd say it's safe to assume a few more specimens of these have been uncovered, but since the TPGs don't label them it's anyone's guess as to how many have surfaced. I really haven't looked all that hard for MPDs myself, once I get out the old Stereo microscope from storage (soon this month hopefully), I'll go through all my Two Cent Pieces again in search of any, I have at least 1000 Two Cent Pieces in double row boxes and in slabs and at the bank.

Kevin's book is well written and worth getting a copy, especially if your interested in this series. Lots of photos similar to the Cherrypickers guide, Kyle Vick published it and also worked closely with JT Stanton when he was alive, so it's no surprising the photos are of similar quality. The book has 220 pages of pertinent information.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
09/24/2019 06:16 am
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 Posted 09/24/2019  07:16 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looking into the NGC Variety Plus designations on 2 cent pieces I find they only list 4 MPDs:

1865 Fancy 5 MPD FS-1304
1865 Fancy 5 MPD FS-1305
1868 MPD FS-301
1869 18/18 MPD FS-301

While PCGS Coin Facts is the same with only 4 MPD designations all the same as NGC.

1865 2C MPD FS-1304
1865 2C MPD FS-1305
1868 2C MPD FS-301
1869 2C MPD & RPD FS-301

ANACS as usual really throws out the various labels:

1865 8 IN DENTICLES
1865 FANCY 5 MPD-002
1865 MPD-002
1868 MPD-001
1868 MPD-002
1869 RPD & MPD FS-301

ANACS also lists a lot of two cent varieties coins as KF plate coins. These are unique coins from Kevin Flynn's first book "Getting your two cents worth" published in 1993. There were no MPDs listed in that book, so I can conclusively say none of the ANACS Flynn plate coins are MPDs other than the RPDs that also have MPDs discovered since the first book. I had a chance to purchase a large number of the plate coins but was going through my divorce at the time, and buying coins wasn't happening for me then, so I can't say as I did not see the coins in hand. Frank Leone sold a number of them in his regular auctions through the short lived newsletter "2-Cent Times" he put out in the early 1990's. (I do have a complete set of these), but do not have them all cross referenced into my 2 cent knowledge database yet.

I did mistakenly mention earlier that there wasn't a good count of melted Two Cent Pieces, that is not true. I forgot that Kevin has figures he researched from the National Archives "Record of minor coins redeemed 1871-83" listed in his first book, he lists them all by date, the total Two Cent Pieces redeemed and melted were 17,557,941 coins. A significant number of coins considering the mintages were only high in the first two years of issue, they steadily declined every year after, until their last year of proof only in 1873 with just over a thousand minted.

Total minted was 45,601,000* business strikes and an estimated 7,160 proofs**.

*The number of 1864 minted Two Cent Pieces is still not exactly known RW Julian has done research that was inconclusive but the numbers are different than the often published number by 25,000 coins.

**Some dated proof coins were struck much later than the date of issue. Proven as the earlier dates (1864 & 1865) were restruck using later hubs from 1869 and 1870. This is an area of research I'm looking into doing more on.

So we can deduce that well over a third of all minted two cent coins were returned and destined for melting. Making them rarer than thought, but yet still plentiful in the marketplace, how many varieties and error coins were redeemed will never be known, but as to real mint errors, there are very, very few major errors known at all, a few capped dies, brockerages, off center, broadstruck and double struck, but much lower than comparable coins of the same era.

EDIT to say I also noticed a big typo in my (9/22 post @ 10:45pm) obviously meant 1871 not 1971! for the final two MPDs. DOH.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
09/24/2019 07:20 am
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 Posted 10/07/2019  02:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@westcoin

Thanks much for your excellent contribution to my questions and then some.

For you or anyone who would like to weigh in I have always had difficulty finding 'variety' retail pricing guides and wanted your input insofar as using the NGC Registry Sets figures shown for my coin at:

https://coins.www.collectors-societ...etTypeID=147

On this page push Ctrl F and type in 816061 to go directly to a VG grade/price of my 1865 2C FS-1304 specimen. I would like to know if this source is the best to find up-to-date prices for varieties of this nature. When I searched for past auction sales for this exact coin it came up empty.

Please give a few reliable online resources that should have the most appropriate $ retail numbers for variety coins like this including any other varieties for all US coins found in one convenient location etc.
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 Posted 10/11/2019  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mark,
It's a tough call to price this coins, I'd say NGC is a tad high at $80.00 value for a VG. Most variety collectors want VF or better coins. I don't see many prices out there in my research either, in any grades, a couple low end MS coins sold in the $200 and under range, though that was quite some years ago. The last Cherrypickers Guide I have is the 5th edition and it only lists VF and above. I'd guess it's a $45-60 value though, even this worn down, I also see a possible issue on your coin, is that a scratch on the reverse "2 to the C in Cents?" If so then low end of my estimate $30-40 possibly.

Still a super tough coin to find.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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