1865 2c MPD Variety Check

Sharper pic needed.

The two known MPD for 1865 Two Cent coins are both fancy 5 which your coin is. The reverse looks to have the necessary die crack through the "TE" of States. so I'd say you found one!

Flynn classification - KF-F22-MPD

Only 8 specimens known as of his book in 2011, no idea how many have been found since it came out, but a tough find for sure, I'm pretty sure I don't have one myself yet. but in lower grades it becomes tougher to tell without the die crack on the reverse, this identifying die crack makes lower grade examples a lot easier to ID. So I'd expect a lot more have been found since the book was published.

Yes it's a mis-placed date there are at least 10 known different mis-placed dates in the Two Cent series, only two of them are 1865 both fancy 5, five are 1868 dates, a single 1869 known and two 1971 dates.

The one your's is Richard, is the second of the 1865's. Obvious due to the die crack on the reverse.

Sorry Mark I missed the correct person I was replying to. I'm getting the information I'm using from Kevin Flynn and his last Two Cent book "The Authoritative Reference on Two Cent Coins."

I don't think either Fivaz/Stanton ( CherryPickers Guide) nor PCGS Coin Facts lists all the ones Kevin noted in his book.

Kevin lists the 1869 MPD-001 as the most common 1869 2 cent piece, it is also a RPD listed as KF-5-RPD, Breen 2398, Kliman 4D+4E, RPD-004 The repunching date is the top of the 18 is above to the North.

The MPD on the 1869 is the 1 and very tough to see as the denticles are very close together making it tough to verify the repunched 1 in them. Even his book photos don't show it very well at all. It's page 83 if you have a copy to look at.

I'm not 100% convinced it's a MPD, according to Kevin's book the top of the MPD 1 protrudes from the top of the denticles to the right of the 1 in the date. PCGS Coinfacts coin in MS65RD soft of shows off the spot the best I still can't be 100% of the 1 showing where he says, if it's there, I would think it would take some special highlighting on a photo to get it to photograph well if at all. Much, much tougher to see it than even the 1864LM reverse Indian Head cent clash. Frank Leone's book "Longacre's Two Cent Piece Die Varieties and Errors" doesn't even mention the MPD in his description, just the RPD. I don't have Kliman's book at hand to see if he mentions it either. Breen's Encyclopedia does not mention the MPD just the RPD.

It appears to be one of the varieties that is almost if not entirely impossible to see on all except a few ultra high grade examples. I've taken the photo you posted and circled where I believe the MPD is supposed to be. Still not very obvious, but something is there.

Looking into the NGC Variety Plus designations on 2 cent pieces I find they only list 4 MPDs:

1865 Fancy 5 MPD FS-1304
1865 Fancy 5 MPD FS-1305
1868 MPD FS-301
1869 18/18 MPD FS-301

While PCGS Coin Facts is the same with only 4 MPD designations all the same as NGC.

1865 2C MPD FS-1304
1865 2C MPD FS-1305
1868 2C MPD FS-301
1869 2C MPD & RPD FS-301

ANACS as usual really throws out the various labels:

1865 8 IN DENTICLES
1865 FANCY 5 MPD-002
1865 MPD-002
1868 MPD-001
1868 MPD-002
1869 RPD & MPD FS-301

ANACS also lists a lot of Two Cent varieties coins as KF plate coins. These are unique coins from Kevin Flynn's first book "Getting your Two Cents worth" published in 1993. There were no MPDs listed in that book, so I can conclusively say none of the ANACS Flynn plate coins are MPDs other than the RPDs that also have MPDs discovered since the first book. I had a chance to purchase a large number of the plate coins but was going through my divorce at the time, and buying coins wasn't happening for me then, so I can't say as I did not see the coins in hand. Frank Leone sold a number of them in his regular auctions through the short lived newsletter "2-Cent Times" he put out in the early 1990's. (I do have a complete set of these), but do not have them all cross referenced into my 2 cent knowledge database yet.

I did mistakenly mention earlier that there wasn't a good count of melted Two Cent Pieces, that is not true. I forgot that Kevin has figures he researched from the National Archives "Record of minor coins redeemed 1871-83" listed in his first book, he lists them all by date, the total Two Cent Pieces redeemed and melted were 17,557,941 coins. A significant number of coins considering the mintages were only high in the first two years of issue, they steadily declined every year after, until their last year of proof only in 1873 with just over a thousand minted.

Total minted was 45,601,000* business strikes and an estimated 7,160 proofs**.

*The number of 1864 minted Two Cent Pieces is still not exactly known RW Julian has done research that was inconclusive but the numbers are different than the often published number by 25,000 coins.

**Some dated proof coins were struck much later than the date of issue. Proven as the earlier dates (1864 & 1865) were restruck using later hubs from 1869 and 1870. This is an area of research I'm looking into doing more on.

So we can deduce that well over a third of all minted Two Cent coins were returned and destined for melting. Making them rarer than thought, but yet still plentiful in the marketplace, how many varieties and error coins were redeemed will never be known, but as to real mint errors, there are very, very few major errors known at all, a few capped dies, brockerages, off center, broadstruck and double struck, but much lower than comparable coins of the same era.

EDIT to say I also noticed a big typo in my (9/22 post @ 10:45pm) obviously meant 1871 not 1971! for the final two MPDs. DOH.

Mark,
It's a tough call to price this coins, I'd say NGC is a tad high at $80.00 value for a VG. Most variety collectors want VF or better coins. I don't see many prices out there in my research either, in any grades, a couple low end MS coins sold in the $200 and under range, though that was quite some years ago. The last CherryPickers Guide I have is the 5th edition and it only lists VF and above. I'd guess it's a $45-60 value though, even this worn down, I also see a possible issue on your coin, is that a scratch on the reverse "2 to the C in Cents?" If so then low end of my estimate $30-40 possibly.

Still a super tough coin to find.

" Two Cent Piece - An 1864 Attribution Guide" by Frank Leone"

A great book I have a few copies myself, I used to maintain a good inventory of them when I was dealing coins in the 90's/early 2000's. I sold one recently to someone that really wanted a copy for $200. I always hoped Frank would put out the rest of the series 1865, and on, but he told me it wouldn't happen unless someone paid him a ton of money to take a year or two off and just write them. He did a few individual coin varieties of 1865 in the CONECA Errorscope issues in the 2001-2004 era and a couple also listed in his newsletter "2-Times" I have a complete set of those as well, once I find a good book binder I'd love to get them all bound together with his Longacre's Two Cent book and his 1864 variety book and a bunch of extra pages for me to fill in as I come across new varieties myself.

Each variety or die pair Frank is aware of, is listed on two pages, one being small B&W photos (ala: Cherry Picker guide) along with a comprehensive obverse and reverse diagnosis of distinguishing features (die cracks, die scratches, date position, Rim Cuds, etc, then the right facing page is a nice line drawn example of the Obverse and Reverse with those die markers drawn in.

Here is the right facing page of the Small Motto to give an example:


The book is spiral bound and has 248 pages, and has been out of print for many years, but if you can find a copy of his 1864 variety book for under $100 grab it quick. I don't see any more copies being made again, and I don't think he made all that many, I never did get answer on that, but I'd bet it's only a few hundred copies or so. I never had more than a dozen or so pass through my hands, I had many more of the first book Frank wrote the "Longacre's Two Cent Piece Die Varieties & Errors" book, I'd bet there were more of those printed, (my personal copy I use is numbered Book #778 in the back page). I still have a handful of that book in stock on my library shelves (some have different color plastic binding combs" but all seem to be the same first edition, other than that binding no difference I've seen.

There are 113 different die listings in the 1864 Attribution book, and most of the Errorscope articles are also included in that count I believe. The Book is "copyright 1997."

I know that Frank is still actively going after major errors and other varieties in the Two Cent series as he has skunked me a few times at various auctions where we competed on the same lots. , there are a few other collectors of the Two Cent Series by die varieties out there, though I don't really know them, I've heard of one or two collectors on the West Coast (likely California), Frank is in New York State. Frank still sells on ebay but his website went away a few years ago, I hear he does attend shows in the NY area, but he told me he doesn't like to fly so little to no chance of him going to West coast shows. I don't go the the East cost shows, and we have never met in person, only over mail and the Internet so far.

A couple of photos I found online of the 1864 Attribution Guide:



And one of Frank Leone's first Two Cent Book from 1991: