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8 Reales Pillar Dollar 1744 Mozambique.

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Pillar of the Community
United States
4872 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2019  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to enter the discussion late.

There is no doubt in my mind that the stamp is false. The way the circle was added to create the R part of the monogram does not match any of the genuine stamps I am aware of.

Regarding the host coin, I am uncertain the coin is genuine. The only way to tell is to do an XRF test looking for Gold in the alloy. I have seen several 1744 8Rs that conclusively tested as modern silver copies which look about as good.

I would focus on the edge design and the overlaps. In 1744 the Mexico City mint had not matched the edge die length so that the overlaps should be easy to spot on a high grade coin. The overlaps must be precisely the same length and they must be 180 degrees apart. Second I would ask to see an in focus picture of the lotus design. Even blurred something seems off.

Regarding having NGC authenticate this coin, I do not believe they will do any more than a visual inspection of the surfaces for the base fee. They will most likely encapsulate the thing. For this coin it is a waste of money. Typically NGC does not even weigh the coin unless you pay extra. They may now also do an XRF test but it will cost you extra and it will probably use a 20-30 micron deep hand held unit. A Laboratory level 100 micron or deeper XRF test would be far better and more accurate for authentication.

I may sound very negative, but after many years of authentication I would say that 8 out of 10 Pillar Dollars of this type that I have encountered prove to be forgeries when tested scientifically.

No one has asked - where did this coin come from?

I would guess the counterstamp was applied in Spain by the notorious group of forgers we all know from the last 10-20 years on eBay. They are the ones that created the printed booklet I illustrated in my book on counterfeit 8Rs. This source typically uses genuine cull coins or forgeries as hosts. This coin is not a cull. So if it comes from any of the names associated with the forgery ring I would change my opinion to completely bad.

Finally did you notice the verdigris on the reverse? That always puts me off when I see it on the reverse of counter stamped coins because underlying copper can be exposed by the application of the c/s.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
78 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2019  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Finnaly some light, Mr Gurney is on & .
There is one thing weird for me on the pillar side, at 4:00 the dentils are very short, without any compensation on opposite side...
New Member
11 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  12:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gerta to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your interest and information. I would like to clarify that the coin was purchased off ebay. I've gotten valuable coins from this store and far more expensive than the 8Rs. He was probably fooled too. It's a lesson for me.
Please clarify the point with lotus to photograph it again
Pillar of the Community
United States
4872 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2019  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The lotus edge design was punched into a pair of flat bar edge dies using one punch applied several times to each die. The dies were mounted in a Mill (Spanish usage) or Castang Machine (US and French usage). One die was fixed in place and the other was moved parallel to the fixed die. The blank for the coin rolled under pressure between the two dies. Each die cut exactly half the edge design and the overlaps in the design (2 of them) occur exactly opposite one another. It is critical therefore that the lengths of the two overlaps are identical in length and are 180 degrees apart. That is the physics of the milling machine.

The next thing is the design of the lotus itself - because one die was used multiple times the segments should be visible. Spacing and design of each lotus must be identical (allowing for post strike damage). My comment was meant to indicate that by the late 1760s the Mexico City mint had adjusted the punch length and controlled the length of the circumference of the blank so that the seams were almost invisible. However in the 1740s this had not yet been accomplished so the seams should be readily visible.

The edge design should not wobble side to side rapidly and ONE overlap was NEVER used.

Double cut edge designs are extremely rare because it was a totally manual process and why do unnecessary work. Mint workers were paid based on total value produced.

Pop outs are seem on counterfeits or forgeries only because the genuine mill had a lip or deep groove to preclude any blank from popping out of the mill prematurely.

Edges of coins were NEVER filed to adjust the total weight.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon or from me directly if you want it signed.
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